Questions from a new guy

[HarryW13]

I just got my first Discus a couple of days ago from Mike Wells, after having them just a couple of days I can see that having just 2 is not going to be enough (Is this how the obsession starts???). They are currently in a community tank, but I want to start an all Discus tank. This forum has been very helpful in getting a lot of info, but I still have some quetions:

1.Filtration: I've always liked power filters with Bio-Wheels, when I look at the posts on what type of filter everyone uses, nobody talks about Bio-Wheels. Is this because of the frequent water changes the Bio-Wheel is not nessesary?
2.Water: I have well water at my house, it goes through a softner before it goes to my tap. I measured the GH=4 and the KH=8, my PH is 7.5. Is my water OK for keeping Discus?/breeding?
3.Food: It seems that most people feed beefheart. Is this something I can get at the Pet shop?
4.If I get tired of looking at a bare bottom in my tank, can I get away with just a 1/4 inch of gravel, or possiblely a thin layer of sand? I think I understand the reason that most of you have no gravel, is that it traps dirt and water quality is very important to you. Thats why I'm wondering if it's OK for a thin layer, which would be easier to keep clean.
Thanks
Harry

[Carol_Roberts]

1.Filtration: I've always liked power filters with Bio-Wheels, when I look at the posts on what type of filter everyone uses, nobody talks about Bio-Wheels. Is this because of the frequent water changes the Bio-Wheel is not nessesary?I've used Emperors - Aqua clears are simpler to maintain, cheaper and do just as good a job

2.Water: I have well water at my house, it goes through a softner before it goes to my tap. I measured the GH=4 and the KH=8, my PH is 7.5. Is my water OK for keeping Discus?/breeding?You may want to use it prior to the softener - calcium and magnesium are replaced by salt. I have a well also, GH11, pH 7.8

3.Food: It seems that most people feed beefheart. Is this something I can get at the Pet shop?Yes, you can buy premade frozen beefheart, blood worms. California black Worms can be ordered and delivered to your house


4.If I get tired of looking at a bare bottom in my tank, can I get away with just a 1/4 inch of gravel, or possiblely a thin layer of sand? I think I understand the reason that most of you have no gravel, is that it traps dirt and water quality is very important to you. Thats why I'm wondering if it's OK for a thin layer, which would be easier to keep clean.I doubt you will even ask that question once you have your discus for a month or two.

Harry, It was nice meeting you the other day... I see you found Simply

Trust me when I say your going to make new friends, Learn a ton and get excellent adivce like Carol has just given you.

Good luck and keep in touch.

Start looking for a bigger tank... Your already hooked. ;D ;D ;D

Mike

[fossil]

Hello, this reply is toward your question about gravel. I have my discus in about 2/4 inch gravel. They do fine. I tried the bare bottom tank and it was just, just to well too ugly for me. I have drift wood in there with a few plastic plants. IMO it looks nice about 100 times nicer then a bare bottom. Its all up to YOU.
-good luck

[Ryan]

There is no debate concerning gravel. It is harder to keep clean. If you do not believe me, dump a bunch of food into a bare bottom tank, and do the same with a gravel tank. Let it sit there for 2 weeks, untouched, then siphon both tanks. The bare bottom tank will come clean quicker.

When you have several discus tanks or a busy lifestyle (or both), sometimes it's hard to find time to pour over every inch of gravel with a siphon and make sure it's clean. I have tried it, I set my tank up and for about two months I ran it with gravel, driftwood, and fake plants. I siphoned religiously and thought everything was great. Until I tore the tank down. The first fake plant I pulled up sent debris floating into the water, as did every other ornament in the tank.

I decided at that point that it probably wasn't the best way to maintain good water quality, which is one of the key elements in discus keeping. I don't feed my juveniles heavily, but I do feed them frequently and with a lot of meaty foods like beefheart, blackworms, and bloodworms. So cleanliness is important to me.

There is nothing that says you cannot raise out discus in a tank with gravel, I have seen it done many times. But you will want to take the extra time needed to siphon it well and keep it free of uneaten food and such. The key thing to remember in discus keeping is that if your water quality suffers, so will your fish. How you choose to setup your tank is up to you, as long as you can maintain water quality.

Ryan

[Ralph]

I just recently set up a tank with about 1/2" of white sand on the bottom, no plants, just sand (and some driftwood). The sand is large grained silica sand that I bought at the LFS. It's relatively easy to keep clean, I vacuum it daily, putting the vacuum spout all the way into the sand to the glass bottom. The sand bubbles around and the solid wastes get sucked up and the sand returns to the bottom.
I like it because it looks good and it's what the discus have in the wild, the river beds are white sand.

[chirohorn]

Beef heart can be obtained very cheaply at your local grocer. Call the meat department in advance to verify availability as not all stores will stock it...kinda scares some folks. Check out the Food section of this forum for beef heart mix recipes & preparation tips.

[fossil]

Hey Ryan about the "test." I dont know why you would leave food in there for 2 weeks?? I change and clean my tank every day with gravel and my discus have doubled in size in just the month and half I have had them. I can be done and I think its kinda bad for the discus to have a bare bottom. I mean think about the crap is just there untill you clean it. Its kinda like 'hay' for goats if there were not any hay on the ground the goats would just be standing in crap I think the gravel makes them more happy and is better for them. Another example is kitty litter what if your cat just pooped in a emty box the litter is there so there just isn't crap for the cat to sit in. I wish I could expand on this but I gtg. I'll write more to night.

[Carol_Roberts]

Erm, no. Kitty litter is not a good analogy. Try a smoke, pollen or air quality analogy.

Water is constatnly run through the discus gills. You need to dilute the pollution by removing as much as possible and then diluting the remaining pollutants with fresh water.

Putting burning leaves in a barrel contains the leaves (like kitty litter) but does nothing to allieviate the air pollution.

Rotting food and feces are constatnly disolving into the water whether it is sitting on a bare bottom or trapped in gravel. You can see it in a bare tank and remove it. It "hides" in the gravel and sits disolving and disolving.

Ryan was suggesting you try an experiment in a tank without discus.

[Ryan]

Carol's right, I was suggesting the experiment in a tank without fish. The point was to demonstrate ease of cleaning between gravel and bare bottom tanks.

Foods begin to break down as soon as they are added to your tank. With siphons and water changes, the uneaten food is removed and has less chance of breaking down and fouling the water. In a gravel tank, if you miss any of the uneaten food during water changes, it sits and decays and slowly kills your water quality. In a bare-bottom tank, I can be 100% sure that I didn't miss anything.

Like I said, gravel tanks are possible, I intended no argument. Just a demonstration as to why I choose bare-bottom over gravel.

Ryan

[Tyler]

Fossil,
You told us you had the great experience of getting to visit Mike and see his setup. Didn't you notice that his tanks were bare bottomed?
And about cleaning gravel tanks....its just impossible to get all the gunk out. Unless you did w/cs on gravel several times a day, and extremely thoroughly, i don't see it being as good for water quality as bb.
JMO

Tyler

[Daniel_SR]

Hi everybody! About the bare bottom i was thinking about a solution that could have both good sides oh the history: the cleaning and the beauty. How about a styrofoam bottom? You can build a nice bottom, and still have all the cleaning facilities. Check out the link bellow to see what can be done with that kind of material.

http://www.aquahobby.com/tankmonth.html

http://home.c2i.net/zthune/under_bygging.htm

I think it´s possible to build something nice, it hasn´t to be all flat, it migth have ups and downs and diferent colors.

Am i too crazzy or something worse than that? Hope not!

See you,

Daniel

[Fisheyes]

Well I hate to steal someone elses idea but here goes. 8) 8) 8)
How about a film of silicon on the bottom spread thinly then throw some silica sand on top[.

Turn upside down right away and walla.
Sand bottom that will be easy to clean yet give the fish something to look at except them selves. ;D[
Oh don't forget to let it dry before using.

I think I will try that myself. hell of an idea ;D ;D ;D
Pictures just to look at enjoy

[Ralph]

Styrofoam? That is wild Daniel, I wouldn't have thought that someone could keep it submerged, it would be like trying to sink an inner tube. But there it is, and it looks great.

The problem with the planted vs. BB discussions is that they are based on trying to decide which way is THE correct and only way to keep discus. And like Daniel said, there are many options, each with it's own set of advantages and drawbacks. Ryan's analogy explaining the problems of keeping a gravel substrate clean is a valid one, there is no way that the gravel can be kept as clean as bare glass. But like he said, if you are willing to do the extra effort to keep the gravel reasonably clean, you can have discus and plants together, successfully.

One of the ways Fossil, is exactly what you mentioned, keep a thin layer of gravel or sand. The thin layer makes anaerobic activity unlikely and minimizes buildup of mulm. Feeding your fish the kinds of foods that don't reach the gravel is another.

I think the answer though for many people who are trying to decide which way to go, is the many options that have some benefits of a planted tank while still offering the cleanliness and ease of a BB tank. There was a recent post in Show Tanks and Biotopes of a tank with no substrate, but he tied plants to driftwood. Others have gone with no substrate but with potted plants in their tank. I'm working on a tank with a sand substrate (very thin) and very few plants. Even the people with BB tanks often recommend putting philodendron roots in their tanks.

It's up to each of us to find the option that best suits our expectations of what we want in a discus tank while still meeting the needs of the discus themselves. To do that, a person needs to inform themselves on the needs of their discus (and also any plants involved). That's where Simply comes in, there are many very experienced people here willing to share what has worked for them (and also what hasn't worked). And it's free!

[Ralph]

Fisheyes, we've been kicking that idea around in the Show Tanks Section. We were also thinking of using a removable mat with sand or something that looks like sand on it. One of the problems we've run into though, is that it's like having sandpaper on the tank bottom, and if the discus hit it, they scrap themselves up. If we could find a soft substance to attched the sand to, or maybe a see-through substance over the top of the sand....flipping the silicone over might be the answer though.
There are definate possibilities with the idea, who's ever it was.