My experiences with crossing wilds

With the resurgence of interest in wilds and crossing with domestics specifically, I thought I would offer my unsolicited experience in having done it longer ago than I care to admit ....before I hit the wall!

At some point, to maintain a genetically stong strain, backcrossing with a wild male is paramount.

Assuming that the domestic discus has good body confirmation...crossing with a Brown or Heckle, there is not much compromising of body confirmation. That is, providing the wild fish has good body shape.

All things being equal...when crossing with a green or spotted strain, body confirmation is very compromised at F1. For improvement, the progeny should then be backcrossed to a domestic. At F1--some improvement will transpire. Things are looking up at F2 and one will experience more improvement on up to F4.

IMO, it is atypical the wild Green possess the least desireable shape of the wild species of discus.

Joe

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joe,
I think with any of the crosses ...f1's are usually not as desireable an out come , but they are a great intermediate if further crosses are done...

That said, I have had some nice F1's from wild greens crossed with snakeskins...


















I've been real pleased with these F1's and am looking forward to additional crosses to improve them.

I have a long way to go before I get to where I want, but I am enjoying the walk!
take care,
-al

[Ryan]

Al,

I'm not sure if I told you or not, but when I started having water problems at the end of last year I sent your fish (along with Jeff's) to stay with a friend of mine locally who breeds discus and angels. He decided to put them into softer water than what I was using, and guess what? You're a great-grandpa now

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

OMG!!!!!!!I didn't know.. Thats great. You have got to get me some family shots for the album!!!

Grankids... can i spoil them? please? ;D

wow...thats a cool piece of news!

-al

[Ryan]

The male was the big "solid" fish that eventually turned striated on me over time. He doesn't look like the other turks from that spawn.. he has a honey-brown base color with a lot of red and thick whitish-blue striation. He looks like what I keep seeing as "red diamond" everywhere on the net.

The female was "flounder", the little snakeskin that laid on the bottom for 2 days after shipping. She is my favorite of the 6 fish and the best patterned of the snakes in the group.

The first batch was very small, maybe because the male was young. Lots of eggs, not many fertile ones. The fry are still fairly small at 2 weeks free-swimming so I don't have any idea what they look like color-wise, but some do have 14 bars

Ryan

I have crossed a bunch of Wild Tefe Red Spotted Greens into everything you can imagine.

The most important part is choosing the wild Male. You need to use the best one that money can buy. Trust me when I say this. The more spots the better results. If your using inferior fish its a waste of time.

For example the fish pictured below that cost me $180.00 produced a few outstanding pieces but the numbers were limited at F1... I should have spent the cash and went for something that had 300+ spots per side and cut a few years off the back crossing.

I hear people sneer at Olivers prices... You get what you pay for. The extra money for a high quality dominate fish may shave a few years off your breeding program.

Also I see lots of people that are getting very excited about breeding wild to wild.... Don't hold your breath sometimes the number of desired F1's that look like parents are less then 10%

Mike

[chirohorn]

Brew, those fish look great. Have you noticed less diseases or health-related issues w/these wild crosses?

F1 Cross from Male above and Female Fine Line SS.

Note SS had a great pattern.

Mike

Same Wild Male

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Chiro,

I don't know about being hardier, because I culled heavily from the beginning, I think I weeded out some of the weaklings.

It may be in my head but I have noticed a pronounced increase in growth rates. ...at least I think I have to the point of being very interested in researching it more.

Alls I can say is these spawns have grown like weeds, and I have had very few problems with them.

I have crossed the snakes to the wild greens a few times now. My most recent cross though is a wild green male X checker board pigeon blood female... I lost a few Months time here from some personal issues, but they spawned weekly and I now have about 100 at dime to quarter size, from one spawn, and week olds from another...Should be interesting...

-al

[Tim_Ellis]

Thanks Michael. Very sound advice. There is a way to pick a wild breeder that their offspring will resemble the parents. It's all depending on the parents. That also reflects on the price of the fish. A certain trait on the fish can predict the color of the F1. A few German Wild experts has also found out how to tell a fish from the same region by some markings on the facial area. Can't explain it in a few words or pages.
Jimmy.

Hi,
Since when does the price of a fish has to do with it's ability to breed true or breed better offsprings? I find it hard to believe that the MORE pricier the fish , the better it'll breed. Please stop this nonsense already...lol.

Runner: Live and learn. When will you ever learn. I rest my case. You are turly an expert. I envy you have already known what the expert has spent over 30 years on this topic. Good for you. Instead of having me further expand my nonsense of what I have found from the German Breeders. I'll let you tell the rest of the world what you have found about the wild and their prices. You people have to ask runner. He is an expert.
Jimmy.

Runner, A dominate wild fish that displays the traits that are desired by breeders fetch a big price. Plain and simple you get what you pay for...

Mike