My experiences with crossing wilds

Hi Beth,

Good question, but I have to say crossing a bd to a wild green(P = bd x wg) will most likely result in an up hill battle when you have to regain the original bd chatacteritics in the later Fs. Again, depending on the stability of the male's genes, your f2 segregation may result in very few bd looking frys. I say "bd looking frys" only because this cross will most likely be unstable and your throw back rates of wild green will dominate most of the time. Sorry to say, I do not think much of this cross, if your intent is to have more bd frys, but the bright side is that who ever bred the f1, did maintain hybrid vigor and that is good. IMO you will see much more brown/green/reddish frys than bds. Then again I may be wrong and you might have tons of bd looking frys in your f2s. That's the beauty, wonder and heartache of breeding any livestock. One tip I'd like to leave with you is : Regardless of what your f2s look like, you can always pick the features you want from that group and back cross it to one of the Ps(the one with the features you like most) going into f3. When you breed, it's very important to know the genetic value of the breeders. If you don't, then it becomes a gamble( most times you lose).hth.

Runner, Tan Chee lok is the breeder. But you hasd the cross--backwaords. It is Wild Green X Blue diamond. also Beth is not attempting to get more BD's--I believe she is happy with the fish as it is just like Christmas! Everyone is different as I had said. These fish are extremely hardy. I have a story to illustrate this.

My wife and I were putting the WG X BD away from a shipment. She inadvertantly, nudged a bucket full of these fish behind a row of tanks. They had alredy persevered over 50 hours in the bag enroute!

Three days later , while looking for a siphon hose that apparantly fell behind the tanks, I saw the six fish in the bucket. To put it realistically, I saw the bags as the water was so gray, I just knew they had to be dead! I was ranting--but then sanity prevailed. I said" Next time we are putting fish away--kindly acount for them all' She grabbed the bag---opened it up despite my objections and they were alive. We put them in an empty tank and they actually ate the next day! What are the odds a fish can withstand 5 days in a bag??? Joe

[Don_Lee]

WOW! Now that is a story of discus toughness. Great thread.

Don ;D

Beth, Many times , the green discus is used to improve the red! Doesn't sound right does it? I think you will experience more red F2's.

Runner, sorry, i disagree with you. I believe most of the new strains were developed by fluke! Sure , there are alot of geneticists working in the field--but for the most part---looking for the next hot strain is a matter of tossing everyone in the community tank and hoping for the best.

In 2001, Julia Mann gave a lecture on Discus genetics. At least half of the contingency present for the awards banquet rose up and walked out! As gentleman, they paused before laughing in the hallway.

i like the Christmas theory--It served Beth well. She ha s gorgeous fish that anyone would be envious of! This is a testament to her Discus skills. Her fish are fantastic to say the least!!!! Joe

Joe, Beth,
lol, yep, got the cross backward and I humbly stand corrected on my call. My analysis of the cross is based on what I can see in the pics, under those circumstances, I gave it my best shot. Anyway, I'm glad that Beth is looking for the red traits and hopefully it'll go her way. Those fish sure have nice shape .
One thing though, of all the pics that I saw, there are at least 3 different types generated by this cross. I would suspect that with a wider sampling, this batch maybe more varied. If that is the case, I would be interested to know if you know the fixation rate on any of the f1 types if one were to try and fix any of the desired traits?
Also very curious as to why Tan would intentionally name his fish a (wg x bd) and would commercilise(sell) an f1 that is so varied. Very unAsian don't you think? he,he, btw, a very good setup.
As for the genetics part, there is a distinct difference between just "lecturing it" and practical application through years of hand-on experience. My point being, most fish farmers are not even college educated, but yet they "know" how traits can be matched in certain permutation to better their chances of success. They say, experience is the best teacher here may lie the proof.
Sorry for such a belaboring post, it's really not my style, but thanks anyway for reading. Remember this, Joe, I'm still your fan. Peace. ;D ;D ;D
And Beth, I'm also your fan , he,he,he. (j k) now can I be first in line when you get some of those frys, please???

Runner, Good reply. Mark ( Tan Chee Lok ) does not put a name on a fish unless it is a strain. I have some F1 Leopard Snakeskin X Golden Pigeon from him. At F1, There is only pattern--no Spots from Pair A. From pair B, I have F2---these are showing spots. F1--no name ( crosses ) F2 will call Leopard Snake Pigeon. I have some Scorpion X Golden Pigeon F1, I will be rearing from Mark as well. I agree this is Un-- Asian like and I am also un-- American as well.

Many Asians will render a name no matter what--even rename the fish when they bought it from someone else with the object being exclusivity. Then there is the American --who will also rename the fish for the same reason. Red Pigeon = Paprka Spice Pigeon! What do ya think? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think that Beth's discus have alot of potential especially at F2. With the myriad of possibilities--she could end up with quite a few strains and fix them.

I didn't keep any from the first batch--but will not make the same mistake twice! I have some at three inch now. I am a fan of Tan Chee Lok. He never ceases to amaze me!

I also agree on your lecturing assessment! Take Care, Joe

[roger]

There is a small side track to the you pay for what you get theory.

Regardless of price, if your getting fish that are from a fairly closed system you can be pretty confident of the genes/traits that your dealing with. Short of going over and collecting fish yourself you have to rely on the person selling you fish.

People like Oliver who collect their own fish can probably come as close to being able to give you the bloodline of the fish your buying. That sort of qaulity/information is very rarely cheap.

So if your planning on doing the wild thing or your breeding in wilds into your domestic strain price doesnt mean squat. Anyone can claim they are selling Tefe RSGs and charge you an arm and a leg for them. There are very few people that you can count on when you shell out those body parts. Oliver being one of those people.

Joe,
lol, "un..A"..loved that. I do envy you, getting all those new "setup" strains from Tan Chee Lok. I'd give my right arm to be in your shoes, needless to say, I'm also a fan of the Tans(including his uncle, you know who I'm talking about)..he,he,he. Take care.

Roger,
I couldn't have said it better.

Thanks Guys for all the input.......

I truely am looking forward to seeing how the colours develop in the F2's ( I really hope to see more red )

Joe.......

What do you think of crossing the F1 WGxBD striated female (see pic below) with a BD male? Do you think that the striations will be lost along with her stress bars?

I would love to see more striations like this and no bars. Any suggestions on how to accomplish this? Would there be another strain that you would suggest for me to try to accomplish this?
Maybe the male F1 WG x BD that is now spawning with the brass coloured F1 female?

hmmmmmmmm....... genetics are fascinating



Beth

Beth, I think it would be a long time to lose the striations in these fish. Even with the crossing, Blue Diamond X Wg X BD, IMO, the blue diamond strain would be genetically recessive. maybe at F3 you might get some Blue Diamonds with a bit of pattern or striations and bar through the eye. To remove the striations, I believe a golden ghost should be used. Even this would take time--but what the hell---you are young and have the time.
( called Full Color ) I think these fish are extremely strong ( evidenced above ) and have a good future for further crossings. If it were me, I would place two like fish together and improve what is already there and call it the Beth Diamond ;D Joe

Hey Joe......

Either I'm reading this wrong or I worded it wrong :-\

There's a proven F1 WG x BD female in the pic above (the blue one with the very thin red lines through her body ( the one in the middle ) I would love to see more of these without the stress bars...... in the group of 8 I recieved from Cary she was the only one like it there for I can't cross 2 like her..... ( do you have a male that looks like her in the group you recieved?)

I do have 3 that are that brass colour and am hoping there is atleast 1 male in the remaining 2 (not proven).... that I would like to see a pair in and really hope to see those improve in a richer looking colour Maybe I could call them Beths Brass Diamonds :funny:

Thanks For Your Input Joe

Beth

Beth, I think it was I that misunderstood your post. I did not keep any for myself. I only have them at three inches now. I think if you had one that was similar, the chances of getting a few by selective breeding may be good. At F3 it would even be greater. Joe

Thanks Joe.....

Beth