My experiences with crossing wilds

[Wolf]

Mike,

Can you explain a little what makes a male a dominate fish and what traits are you looking for in a breeding quality male. I am assuming you mean on a RSG you are looking for a fish with a ton of spots but what else is important besides shape that people need to consider.

Mike, Jimmy,
I can understanding paying a high price for a 300 spotted wild rsg., but paying a high price for a regular wild brown/red is something else regardless of where it came from. The rsg at least you can see the quality. But either case, is NO gaurantee of f1s looking like the Ps. I am no expert, but I know at least that much...lol. In discus arena, the tip is "buyers beware". Go figure..lol.

I'll tell you when you buy wild from Oliver. Ask him which fish he doesn't like. He will sell a stuning looking fish in give away price. Why? Just because they are not a good breeder. The color will not pass on the next generation. How does he know? Simply with lots of experience and constant discussion and communication with his partners in Germany. That's how they select fish down in the Amazon. They pick the cream of the crop. He only came back with only 1 RSG this time.
Runner. I'm sure you know the answer since you seems to know everything about wilds. Curipera is only a brown discus. Dosen't worth the price we paid. Regardless where they come from. Please do some research, even an expert like you will learn a thing or two. Have a good day. by the way, for your own info. The one you call a brown discus can only be bred by the 2 German Breeders in the world. The F1 are twice as red as their parents. Why? He knows and he has a million dollars water treatment system in his basement. I wonder why he wasted all his time and money for a Brown discus. Silly Isn't it ? He is not as smart as you are. Plain and simple.
Jimmy.

[Jason]

Mike&Jimmy!

you get what you pay for!

Sometimes you get what you pay for, but when talking about f1s, the equation changes quite abit. It amy not be as clear cut as you like it to be. Jimmy, I am no expert, I'm just presenting my view point, but I can tell you are already visibly disturbed. Maybe I did touch a sore spot?..lol..
Jimmy,
I do have some questions for you. Do you seriously think that the wild crosses will ever produce reds as red as the tank bred reds we currently have? And if they do, do you know how long it'll take to get to the current stage of the game?All you can hope for is playing catch up, and you are the one who's talking about wasting time. . But I guess it's ok if you like it, no problem there. he,he,he.

Mike,
I'm sure you know what I am talking about regarding f1s NOT looking like the parents, right?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Runner,
Could you share with everyone what your experiences with breeding discus are? From your posts I get the impression you have alot of experience with breeding discus.

Maybe it might help clarify what you are saying, if you gave some specific example of the lines you are familar with. I'd also be interested in hearing about what your experineces are with breeding wilds?

thanks,
al

ps... anyone else out there have F1 wild X domestic or wild Xwild sthey could post?

Hi Al,
You overated me and I take that as a compliment, thanks. Actually I have little experience in breeding wilds, but "little experience" in discusdom can be relative(depends who you are comparing with). So for those readers who are reading this, just remember, just because someone comes through sounding as knowledgable, they maybe empty vessels( just like me) ..lol. As I have made my point previously, I will not go further.
As far as sharing my experiences with the board, I will leave it to the many pros here who are much more capable than me. I'll now take my bow. thanks for reading.

[Wahter]

I'm curious too - what traits are going to be dominant as opposed to recessive? Shape, size, coloration, size of fins, body heighth, number of spots, speed of growth, etc... Wayne's book and video CD touch on this a bit (I liked seeing the stages of the blue diamond). How do you know which traits will be lost when crossbreeding with wilds?

What is the likelyhood of a wild red spotted green passing the quantity of spots to the F1's? Since wilds breed randomly (ie. the "high number of spots" fish aren't going to leave the "low number of spots" fish by alone, right?), a "high number of spots" fish might have "low number of spots" in his or her genes, right?

Walter

Walter: Some experienced wild breeders have found out that spots and color of the pectoral fin and the abdominal area will pass on to the next generation. Any fish with a colorful abdominal area will cost more in Japan and they are the good breeders. The buyer from Japan is ready to pay $100US right out from the dock in Brazil. Runner can correct me if he thinks I'm talking nonsence. This is only one of the traits to select a good breeder from the poor. Body shape is only secondary which can be developed with food between 1/2" to 2".
Jimmy.

hi walter,
Your quote: the number of high spots on a fish can carry low spots in its genes" is absolutly correct. That is the essence of my argument regaring expensive/expensive looking fish. Regardless of what you are out crossing(note selection of an outcross versus an inbreeding is slightly different) , your primary mode of an outcross is "hybrid vigor", the rest of the charactertics can be secondary. hth.
Breeders like to buy rsgs with 200+ spots to increase their chances of f1s, but ultimatly, there are no gaurantees. I have friends who have 200 spotted rsgs, that only produce green frys and green frys with 50 spots the most for 2 generations. even after back crossing.

Jimmy, Not wanting to seem antagonistic, but the Japanese breeders were paying $400 apiece for RSG Wilds and a good premium for the Tefe's.

IME, the percentage of F1's looking like the parents was very low--even with quality breeding stock. IMO, Walter brings up a good point about the spots. Actually it is the Tefe' that does best as far as spot transfer to tank raised discus.

Take care, Joe

[Rod]

This discus pair is red turk and a female wild brown. The female has a red hue but i have no idea where she was caught. The babies from this cross are very strong and consistent with regards to form and growth rate and the deformation and cull rate is almost nil. I have some growouts here that are around 4" and starting to show some decent color, most of the babies turn out red/brown base with blue spots across the body, so really nothing like either parent. I believe in the first inbred generation i can expect striated fish again like the dad. Time will tell.

[Rod]

these are babies about 2" or slightly more.

Rod,
Your crossing can be considered a sucess in that you have achieved hybrid vigor in the f1s . Assuming that the male has a stable genetic base, the segregation of the other characteritics will likely appear in your coming f2s(the full striation of the male and the red/brown female). The % segregation of your f2s will also give you an idea of your male's genetic base and it's stability and those results will likely serve as guides as to whether you can further use this male for other outcrosses. Great going, and a nice pair if I may add.

Hi there Runner.....

A question for you.....

This being a pair (siblings)





Dad was a Wild Green and Mom was a Blue Diamond there for this pair is F1.... they have fry now F2's.... what should I expect as far as colour in the spawn?

I have 6 more of these WG x BD F1's, 2 look more like the female above with showing the stress bars more often, 1 like the male above, 1 appears like a Cobalt, 1 a lighter coloured looking Cobalt almost colourless blue :-\ (too hard to explain ) 1 striated..... here are a few of those siblings.

I figure a few pics of the F1 siblings can maybe give you an idea or an estimated guess of what I should maybe expect in the F2's....







Any thoughts??????

Maybe more red in the F2's ?

TIA
Beth