CBW

[flogger426]

thanks john lee

actually i do have some fish now - i purchased some recently - but it has been a long time! life got in the way - now i have some time on my hands.

i know some breeders here use them - but i know alot who don't! i guess its a personal thing. like my father says "you gotta do what you gotta do!"

The only thing I will add to this post is a saying that I have heard Cary say many times and I am going to borrow it from him. I hope he dosent mind........................................

blackworms dont kill discus.....people do.............
enough said....................


Randy

[flogger426]

you know john - i won't get into an airplane - not because i'm afraid of planes, but because i'm afraid of the guys working on the planes!

[flogger426]

randy,

with all due respect to cary i'm not to sure about that statement.

you probably could say this though:

"blackworms don't kill discus - pathagens do!"

[Ryan]

I will only say this once.

I am not sure what the big argument is about blackworms. Why do people single out blackworms?

Is it not true that you can have bad beefheart? There's been reports of people using heart from a hormoned animal that caused excess fin growth in their discus, and who knows what it may have done to them otherwise.

Frozen bloodworms can go bad if they are defrosted and refrozen. These could make fish sick.

You could unknowingly introduce nasties into your tank with siphon hoses, nets, filters, or other objects if they've been used in previous aquariums.

Your water may be harboring all kinds of things if you are not careful. I run a risk of losing fish everytime I do a water change because God only knows what is living in our tap water.

My point is that, like anything in the discus hobby, blackworms have their advantages and disadvantages. Without the proper attention and care, almost everything you do in the discus hobby could prove hazardous to your fish. Isn't everything we do in discus keeping a gamble?

If you don't think that live blackworms are a good idea, do not feed them. If you've used them with great success as many have, why stop now?

Ryan

Flog....read on...

Dear Dr. Drewes,
> I raise a tropical fish, called Discus as a hobby. The
>question has been raised by my fellow hobbyists as to
>whether or not Lumbriculus variegatus can act as an
>intermediate host for Tape worms to be passed then on
>to our fish. Also the question was asked if they could
>possibly ingest eggs of parasitic worms, and gill
>flukes, and then pass them along the Discus. I am also
>a biologist and I have searched the literature and
>found no research to support this.
> May I ask you opinion on this matter? I know from my
>literature searches that you have researched this
>organism extensively.
> Any information you could give me is greatly
>appreciated. Thank you very much.
>
> Sincerely,
>Al Sabetta
Dr. Drewes reply...

Dear Al,
You are correct. There is no published evidence whatsoever that Lumbriculus
is an intermediate host for tapeworms. I suppose that any scavenging
organism, including many fish, could inadvertently ingest tapeworm eggs and
then, through either predation (being eaten) or by defecation, pass them
onto another organism. To avoid that remote possibility, I suppose it
might be prudent to let newly acquired organisms (worms and fish) clear
their gut contents in a separate container, if you don't know what they
have been eating. I continue to glean the Lumbriculus literature but have
found no support for the concern and claim about tapeworms. Thanks very
much for your message and interest.
Charles Drewes
Professor of Zoology and Genetics


But of course....you know better....Right?

Flog ol' boy.....I dont want to speak for others here, but IMO... the main problem here ISNT that your against blackworms.....its that you consistently use the word "FACT" in your argument against them....when in "FACT" you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE(nor does anyone else) to back up your claims. Plain and simple!
Voice your opinion all you like....just dont get opinion and fact mixed up.There is a MONUMENTAL difference between the two words.

Tony

[redlines]

Tony,

I agree with you and that is the [glow=red,2,300]FACT![/glow]

Andy

I don't feed live CBW, but I have in the past. The cost it just too high and they're too hard to get into Canada. But the fish sure loved them and the growth of any small Discus that I had was noticeably greater. I'm not convinced that overall the fish get any bigger, they just get there quicker. I'm also not convinced that faster growth is necessarily healthy for the fish, it just makes their owner happy. The worms do keep the tank clean mainly because they're all eaten and don't break down while sitting on the tank bottom. My first Discus were feed beefheart, bloodworms & brine shrimp. I've had them the longest and they're my biggest fish. Patience is the key but cost must also be considered. I hate grinding beefheart with a passion but for $25 Cdn I can offer beefheart as one meal a day for about 6 weeks. The rest is made up with Bloodworms and Hikari pellets. Overall my total cost of feeding about 100 Discus for 6 weeks is about $150 Cdn. It costs about $275 Cdn to bring in 10lbs of live CBW and they would last less then a month if I fed them exclusively. I would use them if they were cheaper and easier to get but they're not.

I don't understand why anyone would care if I use them or not. Nor do I care whether someone else uses them. Most, if not all of my fish come from Cary Strong these days. He uses a lot of worms and I have no complaints about the fish I've been receiving. For those that feel these worms are deadly, don't use them and don't be concerned if someone else believes in them. When you buy fish ask the breeder what he/she feeds and make sure that you have no concerns with the choices made.

Dave

[Ralph]

Great post Dave, I hope that settles the issue.

I agree Dave Good Post...This thread started when TnMark asked a simple question about his black worm holder and look where it has gone. Use blackworms or dont use them its a personal choice......

Randy

[Johnlee]

I also agree with David.
If you feed your fish Blackworms and are happy
continue to do so. If you don't and do not want to, then don't!
Everyone has the right to their opinion, but state it as your opinion only. What I see here about Blackworms is a few who do not like them try to impose their beliefs upon others with no backup data. The key is, if your going to make a point blank statement about Blackworms or anything else for that matter know what your talking about and have proven date to back it up. I believe that is why members who have had no problems with them stand up right away. The members here who do use Blackworms just pass along their good experiences with them to other members, their not trying to talk anyone into using them.
JMO

Johnlee

[Rick_May]

I'm going to jump in here. When I started keeping discus in the 80's it was a sin to feed cbw as they were thought to be the same as tubifex. We've progressed from this, or at least a lot of us have. So why the worry about tubifex? It's not that the tubifex worm is dangerous to fish, its that in order to produce tubifex in large enough amounts to sell they need to come from really nasty waters, like the run off from dairy feed lots or pork producing outfits. tubifex are good to feed your fish IF they come from a clean source. enough about tubifex, CBW are not tubifex. CBW and tubifex require different biotopes to thrive CBW need a clean environment they would die in the conditions that are 'prime' for tubifex. now could their be tubifex in with your CBW? maybe, but they would be fine to feed your fish as they come form the same clean conditions that are needed to produce CBW. So what about leaches? I haven’t seen any unless people are mistaking the other critter that I've seen come with CBW shaped like a leach with a kind of arrowhead shaped head, these are flat worms, or Planaria, not a problem for your fish. they will eat these also.
here's one dyed red normally they are brownish like CBW and if you get a close look at them you should be able to see eyespots that are white.

http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~biol240/Lab.../planaria.html