Need help

[NickK]

I am about to split my discus into a second tank, but I noticed some strange behavior in a few discus. First, most of the discus are breathing rapidly. They look fine, and they are all eating great. However, after eating, most are breathing faster than normal and sitting still. 2 or 3 of them are twitching occasionally and try to scrape their sides on the bottom of the tank every now and then. All of my discus are in 1 tank right now. What does this sound like? And how should I proceed? If I need salt or a med, should I add it to the tank? Will it affect the bio-filtration?

Thanks for your help
Nick

[Kagan]

Hi,

First of all, please give the details of the tank and the parameters. But it sounds like the biological filtering may be insufficient if the breathing rate increases too much.

Kagan

[NickK]

Here are the params:

55 gal tank
24 - juvies (2-3" discus) I know, but keep reading.
Emperor 400 bio-wheel
Ehiem 2227 wet-dry (filled with Ehfisubstrat)
Hydro 4 sponge

86 F
7.2 pH

0 Ammonia
0 - maybe .10 Nitrite (there is a very tiny amount on the test kit, but nowhere near the first mark of .25mg.)
15-20 nitrate (my city water already has ~10 nitrates)

The fish have been doing very well since I received them about a month ago. Some have grown faster than others, and I am about to split them into a 75 tonight. I have another 75 that will be cycled within the next couple weeks. All 24 discus will then be grown out in either the 55 or one of the two 75s. This will equate to 8.5 gal per fish.

I feed beefheart, colorbits, frozen mysis, and ONF1 flakes.

I do 60% w/c every 48 hours.

I noticed one or two "shimmys" earlier today, and one scratch against the bottom of the tank. But this was the first time I ever noticed it. The other night I freaked them out by dropping the water level to 1", in order to put white paper under the tank. Initially, one fish was stressed more than the others, and was breathing heavy.

Do you think they just need more space?

Any advice?

Nick,
It seems to me the water parameters may be changing too much with your water changing schedule. I think doing 30% each day would be much better on the fish. Many people will jump to the conclusion that its gill flukes or something of the like, but there is a great likelihood that it's something much simpler. I'd go ahead and add 1 Tablespoon non-iodized salt per 10 gallons of water and adjust your water change schedule. If you can't change every day, at least knock the percentage you change down so the water chemistry change they experience isn't so great.

[Kagan]

I also agree that it would be early to decide on gill flukes. First you have to observe the gills . Inaddition, is this fast breathing after the beefheart feeding or is it after all the feeding types? Heavy feeding might result as temporary heavy breathing. HITH. Also, the fish load is heavy for the tank.

Kagan

[NickK]

Is 30% per day better than 60% every other day? My rationale for EOD is that I want to establish a good bio-load capability. (I've read that beneficial bacteria only exist to the current demand, and sometimes I travel for business) However, if 30% per day is better, than I will switch my schedule. Also, this just happened this week, and I've been on the WC schedule for 3+ weeks. A few of the discus starting twitching their fins today, and most of the fish seem to be breathing faster than normal.

What do I look for when I inspect the gills? Could the white bottom I installed have brought this on? The white paper was the only variable this week.

Nick

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Nick,
Split your discus into the two tanks. I'm guessing you have way too many discus in your tank to be doing every other day 60% WC. Probably daily 60% would be more like it. Do the split, add some salt and lets see how they are in a couple of days.

If you only had a pair or a few small adults in a 55 you could get away with every other day WC. You can't stock heavy AND do every other day WC. If you're going to break the stocking rules you HAVE to do BIG DAILY water changes.

[slicksta]

Nick....

How is your oxygen level....how are you introducing O.....are the fish at the top of the tank allot....not familiar with the Ehiem.....but usually wet/dry are excellent for adding O to your tank. I would increase my O level first thing when you see heavy breathing....this is accomplished by breaking the water surface and/or agitation at the surface

When looking for gill fluke....fish tend to breathe out of one gill or the other or not in unison....but I think it maybe to soon to jump to that conclusion. Keep an eye on the scrapping....fish will do this normally, but not frequently.....

Smaller water changes, more often are better because it keeps the water chemistry more stable if there is any difference between the new water and the water in the tank.

I'm not a big fan of beefheart as it fouls water...IMHO ....loose it....but I am the minority..I would like to add....that over feeding makes them act funny...how often and how much do you feed....

Discus can be stressed easily....with the white paper and the lowering of the water the other night.....they just might be a little spooked....do your water changes....but keep tank disturbance to a minimal for a couple of days....keep an eye on themand keep us updated.....

Nick,
I agree with Carrol, 60% daily would be ideal. If you let all the water build up waste and such for two days, then replace 2/3 of the tank with new water, the fish undergo a large change in the water chemistry. I was just saying that if you only have the capacity to change 60% total over two days, splitting it up to 30% each day would be best so the fish don't go through so much stress. I think 50-60% every day would be the best for your fish. Your bio-filter will build up doing those changes.

24 discus 2.5" inches in size in a 55 gallon tank is not what's causing your problem. However I do agree bigger is better... The white bottom is not a problem either.

Fish don't just scratch because they have gill flukes. They will do it when they have protozoan and bacterial infections too. I would increase the heat to 89-90 and add 5 tablespoons of salt per ten gallons. Keep up with the water changes 50% every day and wait and see.

Mike

[flogger426]

mikes right!

salt (non-iodized) works wonders - throw an airstone in too!

i would also cut back on feeding - feed lightly - sometimes fish scratch and dart because your overfeeding and the bacteria count in the water is rising.

make sure all water changes (in my opinion 25% is fine!) are done at the same temp as the tank water - as well as ph and don't forget to dechlorinate if its coming out of the tap.

most of all don't freak out and start dumping all kinds of medications and **** in the tank. and i would wait before moving any fish!


good luck - keep us posted

[NickK]

Oops! I just moved 12 of them (the largest ones) into the 75. In reply to the above questions, here are some answers that will hopefully shed some light on the subject.

None of the fish are near the top. I have airstones and airstone driven sponge filters. Plus, the wet/dry is adding oxygen.

All of the gills look fine. No clamped gills, or single working gills. A couple of the fish are just breathing faster than normal.

If overfeeding is bad, then this may be the cause. I feed 4-5 times per day. I only feed beefheart once, and supplement with colorbits, flakes, and frozen mysis. The prefilters are very very dirty when I do the waterchanges. However, I always take them out and wash them in old tank water.

All of the water that goes into the tank has been de-chlorinated (aqua-safe, or similar product), heated to same temp, and aged for 24 hours with airstones.

Can I use the Instant Ocean brand salt left over from my reef tank? Will salt dosing hurt the bio-filtration? How long should I use it?

My pH used to be 7.6, but it was 7.2 when I tested it today. I don't normally test pH, and it had dropped, but I don't know when. Can city water fluctuate in pH? We have had all of these record snow days, and I wonder if the road salts can affect it. Could this drop upset the fish?

Lots of info, but hopefully you can make sense of it.

Nick

PS - What causes a discus to watch the bottom of the tank, and keep its head down?

[flogger426]

nick,

i would start adjusting my ph downward to about 6.5 and try leaving it there. 7.6 is too high in my opinion and besides ammonia becomes toxic above 7.

some people will tell you that they raise all their fish in 7.5 or 7.6 ph - but why? it makes no sense to me.

lots of times if the fishes bellys are bulging - they will pump heavily. like you do when your looking down at a big steak.

i like watching my fish eat, so i feed 4 or 5 times a day sometimes more, but small feedings - and anything left over after 10 minutes i syphon out.

i have alot of time on my hands huh - lol

good luck!

[slicksta]

nick
the head down is also caused by over-feeding....bloating.

me....I would cut back on the feedings to twice a day....
I only feed one to two times a day.

Sounds like you have plenty of O....
I would wash the prefilters in tap and clean them well....you don't need them to be bio also.....you have plenty of that with the wet/dry and the biowheel.

don't no about the reef salt....I use non iodine table salt
City pH can fluctuate....but from your #'s....that's not bad at all.....
and I add....I would not mess with adjusting pH...not worth the problems you can cause...water chem can be tricky

[NickK]

I don't want to start messing with my pH. Too much hassle, and I'm sure it would do more harm than good.

I was feeding 4-5 times in order to achieve good growth. Will 2 feedings still acheive maximum growth?

What can I do about the 15-20 ppm Nitrates? Is this a dangerous level? I can't get it to drop any further. The farms in Ohio cause my tap water to contain about 10 ppm. I have some plants rooted in the Emperor filter, but I don't know if they are doing anything.

Finally, will the salt hurt my bio-filtration or alter pH?

Nick