Quarantine and medication debate

[wild4discus]

[QUOTE

I would like to know how people maintain planted tanks with substrate for long periods of time without any disease issues. Is it possible? Can someone give a step by step of how they did it, period of time without any disease issues, or how disease was treated.
[/QUOTE]
I have never had any problems with disease in my tanks since buying disease free tissue cultured plants. They cost cost more money, but worth it IMO. Don't have to worry about introducing snails and parasites, especially.

[dirtyplants]

First I QT any one showing signs of flukes, and then treat them, Ich is never a problem at my temps. Second although I do not need to do WC I do daily to keep any ecto parasite down to low levels. I also vacuum daily throughly a section of the gravel daily. Vacuuming seems to rid snails and they are a big carrier of flukes. I run a hydroponic system overhead no other need for filtration. All plants are bleached before being added, All cat fish and plecos are keep in QT for 6 months and treated for worms and flukes. No new additions of baby discus until they reach 4 in. but now all my 4 in. are 6+ so the babies are kept in a separate grow out tank until 6in before going into the planted tank. Which means I keep them in QT for a very long time. I will not add tetras, or any cat fish without a six month QT. If there is a sign of flicking that catches my attention I watch that fish for 24 hours and count how many times it flicks. More then twice into QT. The water is treated with prazi for 24 hours every three months. Note I do not let the prazi stay in the tank for recommended treatment time it is just for the free swimming parasites that may have hatched. Pretty much I just do the maintenance and Qting to limit the introduction and to control any living parasites within the tank. So knock on wood I have had little problems. I also do garlic in my tank every two weeks.

[OC Discus]

Coree,

Have you posted pics of your setup anywhere? I'd like to see the tank and the hydroponic system.

When you say you treat with prazi every 3 months, is that the main tank or qt tank?

What is your regular wc/maintenance schedule?

First I QT any one showing signs of flukes, and then treat them, Ich is never a problem at my temps. Second although I do not need to do WC I do daily to keep any ecto parasite down to low levels. I also vacuum daily throughly a section of the gravel daily. Vacuuming seems to rid snails and they are a big carrier of flukes. I run a hydroponic system overhead no other need for filtration. All plants are bleached before being added, All cat fish and plecos are keep in QT for 6 months and treated for worms and flukes. No new additions of baby discus until they reach 4 in. but now all my 4 in. are 6+ so the babies are kept in a separate grow out tank until 6in before going into the planted tank. Which means I keep them in QT for a very long time. I will not add tetras, or any cat fish without a six month QT. If there is a sign of flicking that catches my attention I watch that fish for 24 hours and count how many times it flicks. More then twice into QT. The water is treated with prazi for 24 hours every three months. Note I do not let the prazi stay in the tank for recommended treatment time it is just for the free swimming parasites that may have hatched. Pretty much I just do the maintenance and Qting to limit the introduction and to control any living parasites within the tank. So knock on wood I have had little problems. I also do garlic in my tank every two weeks.

[nc0gnet0]

When you say you treat with prazi every 3 months, is that the main tank or qt tank?

I strongly sugfgest NOT to adopt this protocol. Whenever you treat with ANY medication, you should always do it for the recomended time frame, NEVER for less than that.

Personally I find routine addition of any medication bad practice. Additionally, by treating for less then the recomended duration, you are doing more harm then good by allowing whatever flukes there maybe in the tank to build up a resistance to the medication. Practices like this are the reason prazi is not as effective on flukes as it once was.

-Rick

[dirtyplants]

Rick recommendations are valid however I am dealing with a 200 gal. tank highly planted, gravel bottom and no filtration system other then roots to take out nitrates. This tank as been running for 25 years, and the fish I remove are fish which over populate the tank. Not though parasite infestation. If I did not do the water changes I do every day I would very much be concerned about fluke resistance or other parasites. For those who do not like this policy I totally understand your position, but I know both sides of this as I have doing this for thirty years and this tank has never had any problems for 25 years. If it an't broke don' fix it. The first ten years were spent learning through trial and error.
When I add medication like prazi it is an amount I have found from my own experience to be beneficial in a closed system like mine, of a heavily planted tank with no filtration other then roots. It is not added for the benefit of the fish only to kill any free swimmers which may hatch from snails. I was asked what I did to make my system work and this is what I do. It has been effective for me and that is why it is posted. I am not posting this as an example of what one should do. This is what I do and have done for 25 years with this tank with no problems.

OC I change about 1/4th of the tank daily, again I do this not because water test warrant it just a means to keep parasites down, I learned a long time ago that no matter what you may feel about parasites they are never totally eradicated and routine hygiene is the the key to keep a well balanced planted tank.

My hydroponic consist of two white pvc fence posts of which I have drill holes on the top for small baskets of which I first tried leaf lettuce and herbs, but they needed far too much light. So now I just do Phillys which grow like mad. I use a pump which is located at the one forth mark in my tank which is the level for WC. I use valves to control the amount of water being pumped into each fence post, to ensure no over flows as nothing is sealed to prevent the water to shoot out of the basket holes. I have pictures of this whole system but on different memory chips and just have not pulled any of this together for a post. This is a forum that frowns upon planted tanks and systems that fall out of the norm.

IF I think a fish is ill I will pull for treatment in OT I do not treat this whole tank. The measures I take seem to work for me. The only problems I have ever had with most of my fish has been through stupidity or because I did not follow QT policies I set for myself.
As for pictures, when this forum becomes a bit more friendly to planted or experimental tanks then I will consider posting pictures.

[wild4discus]

DP, well said and good response. I totally agree with doing what works best for you. You are obviously doing something right if you have had few or no problems for 25 years with your tank. You stated the exact reasons why I have not posted any pics of my 125g planted discus community tank. Right now I am growing out 5 discus in this tank with a combination of methods I have learned over the last 25 years. It has been labor intensive, but my discus are thriving and growing fast as well as all their tankmates.

OC, glad your discus are recovering...

[nc0gnet0]

I was asked what I did to make my system work and this is what I do. It has been effective for me and that is why it is posted. I am not posting this as an example of what one should do. This is what I do and have done for 25 years with this tank with no problems.

Then why post it? By posting an example of what you do and stating it has worked for you is just EXACTLY how people will take it, as an example. My response to you had nothing at all to do with the planted vs non-planted tanks debate, not sure why you felt it neccesary to go into all that. As for your argument as to it has worked for you in the past and as a result will continue on doing so (and anyone else that might support this position), doesn't change the fact that the practice is a bad pratice, regardless . Medications are meant to be dosed as directed, when directed and for the length of the directions. The only exception to this rule is that of a bad reaction to said medication. Practices such as yours lead to the developement of super bugs, bacteria and parasites that are resistant to medications.

As for you perception of the planted tank debate, there is a reason why the disease section is always litered with posts with people with planted tanks. It's just plain harder to do, and when something does go wrong, much harder to correct. this very thread is an excellent example of that. It doesn't mean it's impossible to raise or keep discus in a planted tank, it is just many magnitudes harder to do, and the results are often less than spectacular. However, if you want to change some of our opinions on this matter, show us pictures of your discus that you have raised in a planted tank.

[dirtyplants]

Rick I do respect your position, but I was asked therefore I answered. If you are saying I am endorsing this tank and it's biological loads, and filtration by talking publicly about it I am not . I am engaging in dialog. This is my tank and I will not lie about how it runs. If you are saying I should keep my voice silenced for sake of hiding a different method which works for my tank and which has been running successfully for 25 years, then you are indicating I should gag my experience as many already do when diversity ends up in confrontation.
I totally agree with you that meds should be used carefully and for a symptomatic treatments. I will be the first to tell people to follow directions and don't use meds unless you have to. I understand you do not like my approach with this tank but it works.
This is a public forum meant to address many voices.
As for planted tanks yes it is very difficult, and a well established tank takes many years. If it were easy it would not be any fun. Planted eco systems require well rounded knowledge and experience, and yes it is hard, but I like hard.

[nc0gnet0]

QUOTE]I understand you do not like my approach with this tank but it works.
This is a public forum meant to address many voices. [/QUOTE]

The fact that it works (or has no effect) is irrelevant. The repercussions of your use of prazi are what I am at issue with. You say you dose for 24 hours, only long enough to kill the free swimmers. Assuming that is indeed what it takes (24 hours) which I highly doubt, what about the eggs that hatch at the 12, 16, 20, and 22 hour mark that do not recieve the neccesary duration required for a 100% kill? You have only succeeded in killing the flukes suseptible to the prazi for that duration, and kept the ones that have a resistance to it alive to breed. Multiply this effect over multiple generations of flukes, re-enforce it every three months and what happens? Whala, flukes in which prazi no longer has an effect on. Bad Ju-ju. Bad practice. Period. No exceptions. There is a reason why when you buy an anti-biotic, pick it up at the pharmacist, and when you read the lable it states in bold letters you to take the medication until it is gone.

John N once told a story of a guy that walked across train tracks everyday, everyday he wore purple shoes when doing so. Seeing how the guy never got hit by a train, was safe to sumise that wearing purple shoes kept him safe? I am glad your tank works great for you. I will save the planted vs Bb tank argument for another day. But your success is not due to your use of prazi, rather it is much more likely your enjoying succes in spite of it.


-Rick

[dirtyplants]

Rick no arguments here, nothing to ague with, the tank has been running for 25 years it is proof enough that what is done and has been done works. This is a unique tank all to its own, and it is my tank. As I said if it ain't broke don't fix it. I do agree that this is an adult tank and coping it would require knowledge of ecological skills.

The fact that it works (or has no effect) is irrelevant.

Who says?

I would like to know how people maintain planted tanks with substrate for long periods of time without any disease issues. Is it possible? Can someone give a step by step of how they did it, period of time without any disease issues, or how disease was treated.

Rick you had nothing to do with the response about planted tanks. The response was to address the above comment.

Bad Ju-ju. Bad practice. Period. No exceptions.

Perhaps for you, but not for this tank.
Rick I read enough of your posts to understand you can be one of the most verbal experimenters, and with great success. You are smart guy with knowledge especially with breeding, but you can not argue away this tank nor can you argue its success.

You disagree with my tank and its protocol, I hear that, expected it. You are missing the point altogether, it is my tank and I can do anything I like, and have been doing anything I like for 25 years and it works! And works just fine. I am not a child and have had enough biological experience in my back ground.
Now instead of attacking this tank and had you asked me if I recommend people copy my methods with this tank I would say absolutely not. It has taken me a very long time to work out many factors, and part of that was done in a lab.
What I do recommend to people is to do hygiene maintenance on their tanks, and ensure QT standards are keep up. Frequent WC are a must for parasite elimination.

[a volar]

Coree, you’re defending your ideas and the way you take care of you tank, which I understand, but I agree with Rick in the prazi part...... So, defend your pictures also!! Post them here!!

[dirtyplants]

My point goes back to the first statement, I don't have to defend this tank and it is this tank. It has been totally successful for 25 years. Nor am I defending what I do and why, including with the prazi. This is what I do for this tank, because of the way it was set up originally and this is not a debatable issue for me on a highly successful tank. Nor am I arguing Rick on his position, I would not recommend anyone else to set their tank up the way I have.
Read my statements

Now instead of attacking this tank and had you asked me if I recommend people copy my methods with this tank I would say absolutely not. It has taken me a very long time to work out many factors, and part of that was done in a lab.

[nc0gnet0]

As much as you would like it to be so, nobody is attacking your tank (not every debate is about planted vs non planted), it is about your improper use of medication. The fact that you posted it in a public forum under a blanket statement (originally) stating that this is what I do and I have been succesful. It is only natural for a new hobbiest to see your post and tell themselves, hey this is what Coree does and it works for her for 25 years, I think I will try it. There was absolutely no disclamor until later in the debate (after I refuted your use of prazi that you made in post 2) about you not recomending it to anyone else.

Regardless of how you may feel about YOUR tank and YOUR level of success, your use of medication is wrong and ill advised, regardless of whether or not you feel it works for you. This is not just my opinion, rather the opinion of almost anyone that has any idea of what and how resistance to ANY medication happens. Personally, I would think someone such as yourself that has a biological brackground would verfiy flukes via the use of a microscope before they began any medication, but that's just me.

And even then we still have the debate on whether or not the prophylactic treatment of fish is a good thing. We have no idea on what the long term effects on the overall health of a Discus might be with repeated exposure to any mediciations.

Everytime I do a water change I spit in my tanks. I have not had a sick fish for over 3 years......oh btw don't try this at home......

Makes no sense does it?


-Rick

[dirtyplants]

Rick my response was was meant to be as is a tank with a regiment tailored for it, which has been successful for 25 years.

For those who do not like this policy I totally understand your position, but I know both sides of this as I have doing this for thirty years

Now instead of attacking this tank and

had you asked me if I recommend people copy my methods with this tank I would say absolutely not. It has taken me a very long time to work out many factors, and part of that was done in a lab.

Personally, I would think someone such as yourself that has a biological brackground would verfiy flukes via the use of a microscope before they bagan any medication, but that's just me.

but that's just me

Perhaps you are right.

[ct3737]

Chill guys, be nice! You'll live longer lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk