Ventral Fins Deteriorating ??

[BoxerDad]

I have noticed that several of my Adults ventral fins to be deteriorating. They look as though they are shriveling and curling up. On some fish they have shortened up considerably.

They are housed in my 125g tank ph 7.2 , conductivity 300 microsiemens.


I do 2 50% water changes a week and siphon the bottom religiously.


I do use Eheim canisters that I clean once every three to 4 months. They have pre-filters on the siphon tubes that I clean regularly.

Anybody seen this before and could it becaused by nitrates in the water.


Will the ventrals eventually return to normal????


Any help will be appreciated.


John

[brewmaster15]

Hi John,
Can you post a picture? Is there any sign of fungus?.
How about Hole in the head? (Nutritional? many species of animals, will auto digest/absorb calcium from bones to compensate for difficiencies) . What do you feed these guys?

-al

[BoxerDad]

No Fungus, I'm wondering if nitrates would be the culprit.

No Hole in the Head

They get Hikari Bloodworms, CBW's, Ginger color flake, some beefheart.

[brewmaster15]

Hi John,
What are your Nitrate levels. At 2 50% changes a week and feeding heavy, they must be high.

are nitrates the cause? I honestly don't know. But I do know that there is a biological interaction between calcium and Nitrates. (nitrates and calcium channel Blockers for ex.) Is there a relationship here ...don't know.

MY advise is rule out the nitrates...bump up to daily water changes, and add some philodendrons/pothos plants to the tank.
hth,
al

[chuck]

John,
IMO I don't think that if you have High Nitrates it would be so selective as to only effect the ventral fins on your fish and not the other fins.
and since you state that they are shriveling up on adult fish in such a short period of time i would expect it was something else.

Just a shot in the dark.. :-\ But since the ventral fins are near the anus maybe it could be protozoic in nature?
anyway that was just a second thought..... :

What I would do is a complete workup of my water, ammonia, Nitrites,Nitrate
I assumming all water parameter are in the norm. I would then either try salt or try Melafix.. on one of the Koi websites (i don't remember the KoiVet.com ,fishdoc.com )had a writeup of fin regeneration using Melafix that had good results I thnk Al has used Melafix also. Melafix supposly has anti-bacterial properities and aids in rapid repair of damaged tissue and fins.

good luck,
chuck

[Francisco_Borrero]

I replied to a similar thread a while ago. While I can not be certain this is your situation, I firmly believe every word I said then, and consider worthwhile for you to use this as food for thought.
I hope this helps.
Cheers, Francisco.
_____________________________


Pectoral Fins? (Posted by rornca)

« on: August 22, 2002, 11:21:11 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At least thats what I think they are called. The question I have is that I see so many discus with these long fins. Mine dont. Mine are all short and stumpy. Why? No other fish biting because the pair is alone.

PS-Not my discus. Just using pic to some pectoral fin for clarification.
Re:Pectoral Fins?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2002, 02:28:29 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually those are not the pectoral fins, but the ventral fins, which in discus, angels, gouramis and others have been modified into thread-like appendages. The most extreme modification I know of, is that of gouramis and others in that Order, in which the fins have become very specialized tactile organs. In discus, they seem to have a little of that functions (and probably others I don't know of), but not as much as in gouramis. The pectorals are the fins on either side of the fish, those that begin just past the outer edge of the operculum. These are used mostly for "steering", stopping, backing up, and also to some extent for propulsion (mostly accomplished by the caudal fin).
Having rescued most of my fish from very poor conditions at various stores and previous owners, it has been my experience that the end of those ventral appendages are very sensitive to a type of "fin rot"(for lack of a better name) when held in less than pristine conditions. As a result, they "rot" and become very short. After improvement of conditions and quite a long time, they may regrow, not always to be as nice as originally. Often they regrow to lesser extension, appearing short; sometimes their ends become twisted and deformed, even if they grow significantly in length.
There may be other reasons for short ventrals, but these are some I know of. On top of that, different individuals, and to some extent different genders may also have differences in the length and degree of branching of those fisns, and they definitely grow longer with age.
HTH. Cheers, Francisco.

__________________________________________________ __

Poor conditions can be a number of things. In bare bottom tanks, often people don't wipe the bottom often enough, even if they vacuum/change water frequently or even daily. Without wiping, heavy bacterial/fungal films grow, and the fish "thread" thru these with their ventral fins as they swim about or search for food. Also, not enough water changes, independently of wiping the bottom can cause this fin problem. The problem is that once the "rot" starts, it is hard to stop it/reverse it unless using using salt, antibiotics and cleaning, most often all of the above. The "rot" is not always apparent upon inspection (you don't see bacterial or fungal "tufts), and all one sees is that the fins are growing shorter or deformed.

Hope this helps. Cheers, Francisco.

[fcdiscus]

John, They will drag them on the bottom and gunk will get stuck to them and cause deterioration. Wipe the bottom of the tank regularly and up WC in those tanks, and a dose or two of Maroxy would not hurt. Frank

[chuck]

I think I might be a little confused ??? ???
I thought in discus the ventral fin would be the fin closest to the tail, (in some fish they have two fins ..the ventral would be before the anus and the anal fin would be behind the anus closest to the tail) The long fins under the gills should be the pelvic fins and the ones near the gills are the pectorial fins
then you have the top dorsal fin and the tail(caudal fin)..
I don't have Pennag discus book with me now but I thought that's how I remember it....????
Or is John just generalizing about all the fins associated along the bottom of the fish??? If he is Then I mis-read his post as you probably figured out by my suggestion... I can be slow witted ..Expecially when I'm lurking while at work.. :-[ : :-\ ;D ;D ;D

oh never mind!!!!!!!!

chuck

[Francisco_Borrero]

Chuck:

In any fish, the ventral fins are paired if they exist (not all fish have them, such as in a moray eel). The anal fin is a single one, and it usually starts just after the anus as its name indicates. The caudal fin is also single and it's the "tail"fin .
Thus, the ventral appendages that are paired and "hair-like" in discus are the ventral fins. Also in discus, the two single, very attractive long fins are the dorsal on top (begins after the head and goes towards the back ending before the tail), and the anal below (the equivalent, beginning after the anus and ending next to the tail).

Cheers, Francisco.