Artifical hatching and natural raising?

[rwhng]

Hi everybody,

I'm a newbie to discus and this is also my first time posting
to this board. ;D

1) I'm wondering if it is possible to hatch the discus
eggs artifically and then put the fry back to the parent
tank and let the parents raise them?

The reason why I'm asking is because my discus
have spawn for the first time a couple of week ago.
But everytime the eggs turned white after three days.
I think the reason is because the water is too hard.

This time I moved the eggs to a jar filled with
bottled water and they hatched successfully.
Right now they are in the free swimming stage.

Can I put them back in the parent tank to feed on
the parents?
I'm try to feed them egg yolk but I don't know
if I'm doing it right.

2) Can the fry survive in the hard water?
I don't have access to RO water except by the bottle.

3) Should I try to soften the water?
Many people recommend using peat but I don't really
know how much is enough and when I should replace
the peat. Are there any guide lines besides consistently monitoring the pH and hardness ?

4) I already add something called Blackwater or
Amazon extract to my water. I heard that it is
mainly peat water? The good thing is that the concentration is probably consistent and there is instruction telling
me how much to add. But apparently this is not softening
the water enough for the eggs to hatch. Is this a waste
of money? A $30 bottle treats 500 gal.

TIA.

I apologize if all my questions have already been
answered a million times.

Ron.

[jjgallow]

Hi Ronald,

I'm new myself, but I'll try to answer these best I can, and I'm sure some of the experts will clarify/correct me

1) They probably will eat them...but I could be wrong. Maybe throw a few in and see how things go. Don't count on great parenting instincts in this situation. I noticed that you posted this two days ago so the fry may not have survived. Please do give us an update as to your status.

2) Hard water is ideal for the fry. It will provide them the vitamins and mineral for them to grow fast. Any shift of water source should involve gradual mixing so as not to shock them, however.

3) If your fish are spawning, your water may not be too hard. Yes, temperature, pH and hardness all can prevent the eggs from hatching. As well, because it is a first spawn the male probably isn't fertile yet. That's likely your problem. You can change the conditions but ultimately he may just need to mature. Also, he may be a girl. No guarantees!

4) If it made them spawn, it's good stuff. You could have bought a big bottle of RO water for $3.95 and that would have done the same thing, however. Once the spawning is complete there is no need for soft water.
"General rule" is that adding chemicals to hard water can be expensive and innefective at softening it.


5) You didn't have a fifth question but I'd like to give you my honest opinion: Keep it as simple as possible. Don't change more than you need to. If your fry are still alive, let us know and there's nothing wrong with trying to save them. However, they're likely doomed! :-\

What's more important than those fry is future spawnings. Do the same things you did to get the first spawning. They may spawn as often as every six days. You'll have better luck each spawning as the parents mature. For the eggs to last three days is an accomplishment in itself.

Write back to us with more detail about the tank setup, where the eggs were laid, what the temperature was, and any knowledge you have of the hardness and pH. If there are things you can improve, people here will be glad to help. Take good care of those parents and keep doing what you're doing.

Cheers!

[rwhng]

Thanks for the reply, jjgallow.

My setup is a 46 gal bare bottom tank with a couple
of potted plants and a large Java fern on a piece of
drift wood.

The tank initially have 5 discus - 2 pigeon blood,
2 blue diamond and another blueish color discus.
There is also a small bushy-nose pleco and 2 small
clown loach.

The water is 29 degree Celcius and has a pH of 7.4
and is moderately hard
(125 mg/L according to the City of Toronto ).

A couple of weeks ago the 2 pigeon blood paired off
and laid eggs on one of the clay pots.
Since then I've moved the other discus to another
tank.

Currently I change 1/3 of the water once a week.
I also add something called blackwater extract
(or Amazon water extract) to the new water.
I think the main ingredient is peat.

I didn't really expect them to spawn because
I don't think I change the water enough plus
they are pretty small. The 2 pigeon blood are 4"
and the others are only 3.5".
I kind of regret getting the blue diamond
because they've probably turned into runts.
This is my first time keeping discus and I probably
should have gotten easier ones like blue turquoise
or something.

Hopefully the paired ones will grow a bit bigger.
I got them at 2" a little over a year ago.

--

Here is the update on the frys.

On day 4, I managed to get half of them
into free swimmers in a separate jar
using the bottled water.
I then move them to flat container
submerged in a 10 gal tank.
I tried to feed them egg yolks but
they don't seem to be eatting.
I'm a little confused as to on how
much egg yolk to apply. ???

1) Should I apply a layer on the rim of the container
so thin that it is transparent?
Or should it be thick enough to be slight yellow
in color?

On day 5, I'm a little worried so I
feed a bit more. They still doesn't seem
to be eatting.

On day 6, half of them died. :'(
I tried to feed them some freshly hatched b.b.s.
They don't seem to be eatting that either.

2) I've read that b.b.s that passes the
brine net are small enough to be fed to the fry rightaway.
Have anybody tried that? It seemed to be easier than
feeding egg yolk.

3) I've read that some ppl use something called a.p.r.
My LFS doesn't carry it. Is LiquidFry Egg Layer formula
the same thing? Is it better and easier than egg yolk?

4) Do we have to use a new boiled egg and a new raw egg
every feeding. It seemed to be a waste. Can I save
the leftover in the fridge. (I don't want to eat
eggs 3 times a day either)

On day 7, another half of them died. :'(

On day 8, all of them died. :'(

Over the entire period, I change 50% of the water
in the container with water in the 10 gal tank 3 times a day.

--
Well, at least the pair seemed to be breeding consistently.
I'll give it another try next week.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Ron.

[jjgallow]

Thanks for the update, Ronald.

Sorry to hear about the little ones....artificial raising is an art in itself. Brewmaster and others on here have had success with it, but I had the same problem getting the fry to eat when I tried artificially raising.

Next time they get ready to spawn, I would suggest not moving the eggs. If they're lasting three days, that's a good sign in itself. If you think the eggs are getting fungus, you can add Methyl Blue. It might be that your water is too hard, but it is also highly likely that your male just isn't mature yet. They sound old enough and big enough, but it was their first try. Let us know how the next few tries go!

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Ron,
The egg yolk method is still the way to go. Buy some baker's egg yolk from a bakery. You don't need the Black Water extract, the babies will grow faster in hard water than soft.
I have a picture of my pan raising babies on my website:
www.geocities.com/taylordoggie

Cliff

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ronald,

I raise alot of my fry artificial. For starters... check out these links....

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...;threadid=1262

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...;threadid=1237

and

http://www.ctdiscus.com/photo4.html


basically the key to success is to have them eating something like an egg yolk mix for the first 2-3 days. What you can do is boil an egg, and take the yolk from it. mix it with 1 raw egg yolk., add one tablespoon powdered spirulina, mix this together. it should be pliable, and a little sticky, add more spirulina or some flake if its too wet. flatten this out to about 1/8 inch thick and store in the freezer wrapped in plastic.

Now take your eggs, and as soon as they hatch move them to a shallow dish containing the same water temp ( check out the links above for my set up). I use a turkey baster to move the fry. The time to start m feeding is critical. It must be when they are free swimming, not on the bottom of the dish. what you do is take the food you mixed, and break a small piece, and thaw it. Now lower the water level of the dish, and dry. Along teh top 1 inch of the dish, lightly smear the food, let dry 15 mins and raise the water to coverit. Add an antibiotic like furan 2 to keep bacteria numbers down. change the food as often as possible. I shoot for 4-5 a day. After 2-3 days you can wean to live baby brine shrimp.

hth,
al

some pics from other posts..
Food....


The rearing pan with food smeared on it....


Fry added, note the water level. make sure the egg mix is dry or it will foul the water...


egg is dried, raise the water gently to ciover it...


Gentle aeration...


The setup. The water in the tank is same pH and temp, so I use it for water changes. It also heats the pans. (The chairs are of course the most expensive multifunctional tank stands ever created ;D.....


The result....






ps the green water is from Furan-2. I make a stock solution of 1 capsule per 15 mls water, from that I use 3-4 mls per pan, per feeding. This is only necessary the first 2-3 days while on the egg, then they are switched to live Baby brine shrimp....

Al
What were some of the reasons that made you decide to hatch and rear fry artificially? I'm guessing in some situations maybe you felt you had no choice because of the actions of the parents....if so...what strains of discus were being "difficult" about raising the fry themselves?

[rwhng]

Thanks for all the replies!

After looking at all the great pictures, I realized what is my
fatal error.

My egg yolk mix is too wet! :P
I thought since I'm using egg yolk to simulate the body slime from the
parents, they should have the same viscocity. Dah!!
As a result, half of the egg yolk ended up on the surface of the water
or sunk to the bottom as soon as I added water to cover it.

My pair has just laid another batch of eggs yesterday.
I'm gonna give it another try over the long weekend. ;D

Some people recommended using APR.
I've just got a tube of OSI Micro Food from mail-order.
I'm tempted to give it a try.

What are the advantage of using APR vs egg yolk?

Which method should a first-timer such as myself use?

TIA.

Ron.