RO regen and PH/KH levels

Hi all

been having a bit of a problem lately, need a little help as im starting to get stumped.

My tap water has very high levels of chloramines, so ive been using reconstituted RO for all my wc's. My old ways were too expensive to keep up with the wc's, so ive tried switching to Pure RO regen'd with Kents RO right (liquid, waiting for the dry mix to come on order), adding sodium bicarb, then adjusting ph with peat.

I started using the big bails of sunshine peat instead of lfs peat, but ive run into a problem. When i raise the KH using sodium bicarb, it sends my ph through the roof, and when adjusting the PH it brings my KH back below 40ppm, and im back where i started. I tried mixing everything into 5 gallons of pure ro then adding peat filtered water, but has the same result, i thougth of adding sodium bicarb prior to peat filtration, but it comes out 0 KH/GH anyway.

Starting to get frustrated, and ran outta ideas : If im missing something easy, please let me know.

Edit: A friend just brought this to my attention, but from what ive read i thought the opposite. Do i need a high KH to keep my PH stable, or is it more reliant on GH?

[Ardan]

Hi,
High KH = High ph

KH is carbonates (alkalinity) (like sodium bicarb) , it counteracts acid (peat moss).

The lower the KH the more unstable the ph. 40ppm = about 2.5 KH. Should be stable and relatively easy to adjust ph.

PH is not dependant on GH.

hth

First off, sorry Ardan, wasnt in a good mood when i originally wrote this. No offence intended with my tone.

K lets try this again...

From my understanding...PH and KH are related but not completely tied to each other. eg When you increase the KH the PH will usually follow it up, but you can adjust PH back down without affecting the KH, however the ph will usually bounce back up from a higher KH. Is the increase of the KH/PH constant or dependant on what is used to raise the KH? And baking soda only lasts for so long...

Im thinking about tossing my peat, might be easier for me without it right now until i get everything stabilized.

Now, for growing out juvies...GH is more important for their growth than KH correct? the minerals they need for their growth are drawn from what a GH test kit looks for. and the KH is simply alkalinity/buffering capacity?

However, plants draw on KH for some of their natural processes?

I only have the time/means for two wc's a week, and im still settling in on whats a good balance for the discus/plants. With the amount they're fed twice a week keeps the nitrates acceptable for both fish and plants.

Please feel free to comment, still learning and welcome the input.

Edit: Rewrite to clean up, and ask what i actually wanted to know :

Edit: Everything here moved into the edit of the above posting

[Ardan]

Hi,
No need to apologoze, I didn't see the bad mood ;D
GH measures mostly calcium and magnesium, these are needed for good growth.

KH measures alkalinity (carbonates) alkaline is the opposite of acid, so it counteracts acid. The more alkalinity the more acid needed to counteract and lower the ph.

I am not too knowlegeable on what plants need as far as KH.

hth

[bristoldiscus]

Are you using carbon with the peat? no good,work against eachother. ;D

[Smokey]

BlkWolfe:
Sorry for the delay in replying> been very busy> telus line problems..
First; you stated your, Calgary-???; water is high in chloramines. A R/O DOES NOT REMOVE CHLORAMINES!!!
Carbon prefilters must be used to remove the chlorine, they do affect the life of a r/o element. There will still be the ammonia in the water, after passing throught he r/o membrane.
Second: could you post the numbers for your water; pH, nh3, no2, chlorine, ammonia, gh, kh, no3, etc. This will be of help.
Third: tank capacity - actuall water volume, not tank size.
Fourth: could you post the numbers for your R/O water. All tests.
Fifth: what is the substrate in your tank; gravel, what kind, sand, etc. ???

All data is relivant .... ok.

No, I do not use filter floss, too coarse; peat particles flow right through it; as you have expierenced.

The peat filter, I made and use is positive pressure. This means the 40 Liter contaniner is pressurized. ; what you had described, IM, is negative pressure.
Using 30 liters of peat, conditions ~ 300 liters, MY water parameters [numbers] are:

TAP WATER ...... PEAT CONDITIONED WATER
. 135 lires ................. 270 liters
pH - 8.5 .............. pH - 6.4 ................... 7.0 pH
gh - +450ppm ...... gh - 100ppm ........ 136ppm
kh - +450ppm ....... kh - 20ppm .......... 42ppm
no3 - 0.0ppm ....... no3 - 0.oppm
ammonia and chlorine are unaffected by the peat conditioning ... I use Laguna water prep, for removal.

Water-in flow rate is ~ 50 liters/ hour.
NOTE: I have used the same peat to condition larger volumes of tap water, however, the peat becomes exhausted quicky: after 300 liters of water these numbers become; pH = 7.5; gh - 166ppm, kh - 107ppm.

You can see the gradual rise in numbers as more and more water is ""forced'' throught the peat.

Also; the peat conditioned water will absorb ''hardness'' from any material in your tank, and resulting changes will occur.

What I like about using large volumes of peat is the consistanty, no need to use carbon prefilters, very inexpensive, colouring of the water [discus love it], the water is already at the temperature I need [ I run 90'F water through the peat] and ease of use.

The actual pH in my tanks will drift, increase, slightly; generally settles in at 7.3. however the gh and kh remain ''soft''.

Remember - all my data is for my 400 liter system / using a large sump, and my stock levels currently are - 7 large adults and 6 juvinals. All tanks are bare bottom.

All water is pumped up into BIO-TOWERS@ and the tanks turn-over flow rate is 3 times / hour. [adjustable for each tank].

Using peat to pre-condition raw tap water does have signifiant value.

HOWEVER, as with any home water conditioning uint / system CONSTANT MONITERING AND COMMON SENSE is the key to a happy, healthy, DISCUS TANK.

EXPERIMENT - EXPIERENCE - CONSITANCY

I will be waiting for your water numbers and information. lol ;D

Smokey

Nope, no carbon anywhere in my system, only use it for removing meds and ive been lucky, havent had to use any in awhile

Smokey

Im up in Edmonton by RonrCa, soon as i can steal him away from his wife and his fish ill be picking his brain too ;D

Ive got a 4 stage RO/DI, reduces my ammonia/chloramines from off the scale on my ammonia test kit, to about 0.25mg/L. Ive made about 1500 gallons and my DI cartridge is starting to change colors, so i might be due to change soon. All tests are still holding good on it so far.

My tank, 75 gallons total, about 65 actual water volume give or take. Ph 6.6, temp 29.5-30'C, Ammonia/Nitrites are both 0, Nitrates are usually kept between 5-10mg/L, but my water changes have slipped so ive been feeding less, though my levels are higher than i want. GH about 125ppm, KH 40ppm, Fe 0.1mg/L, Phosphates 0.25mg/L, and thats all the tests i have.

dont know if you want the pure RO or the water ive been using for wc's. pure RO params, zero'd on all, <1ppm tds on my tds meter, just the 0.25 ammonia. Prepped for wc's = ph 6.6-6.8, GH 125-135ppm, KH 45ppm, zero nitrates, phosphates etc. I was using RO Vital, and peat pellets to bring it to the PH i wanted, but all this stuff from lfs was getting too expensive, rather spend it on fish.

Im thinking of just dumping the peat, great for tap water but its been a pain with the RO water, i dont really think i need it for the RO water anymore. Anything else i can use to lower my PH?

Oh, stock levels at the moment, 3 x 3" juvies (my little footballs), 4 german blue rams, 4 rummies, 1 7" black ghost knife, 1 x 5" L200 Lemon spot green pleco, 1 x 2" L114 Redfin sternella pleco. I used to have angels, cardinals, and rasboras in there but moved them to make more room for discus before all the troubles with my water started.

i had consistency til i tried going cheap : just means i got more to learn ;D

[DavidH]

I'm using straight RO due to chloramines.
I use two 30 gal holding tanks.
I raise conductivity to 40 using RO Vital then add !/8 to 1/4 tsp. baking soda per tank. Ends up at 50.
I adjust baking soda depending on pH I want.

HTH
Dave

Does the baking soda wear off after a couple days? or just the normal changes from the nitrification cycle?

[DavidH]

I change 50 % daily on all tanks so I can't really say.

Dave

[bristoldiscus]

Something often overlooked is the fact that a well matured filter will acidify water naterally ;D

Bristol, yeah due to the nitrification cycle correct?

I finally got my Ro Right in yesterday and mixed up a batch. Dry stuff has Gh/and a little buffering in it and didnt sent my ph through the roof.

im a happy camper now

thanks everybody

[ronrca]

Well, that depends! If you have ammonia in your water (ammonia being basic) and your filter removes the ammonia, ph should go down! Then again, that will depend on how much ammonia is present to begin with and the buffering capacity, etc, etc! However, as the water disipates C02, it will rise again.

On the other hand, why bother messing with the water unless your breeding! Sounds like a pain in the arse to me! If anything Id use Smokey's peat filter! My 90G planted uses tap water. Gh and kh around 160ppm! I have C02 injection which holds the ph steady at 7.2! My discus grow out tank (singular for now), uses tap water also and all I treat is for chloramines using Laguna's water prep. You cant get much simpler, easier and cheaper than that. Once my rack system is up and running, I intend to use the peat filter (I hope).

Hey Ron

This Ro right has made it alot easier, was using ro vital (the marc weiss stuff) before and it played hell with my ph cause it had a buffer in it. I dont need the peat for adjusting the ph anymore, so far this is working out good. Cheap (relativly) and easy for me.

haha dont forget i started with RO for my guys, its not alot of work to me...i just dont know any better ;D all i gotta do now is use the bucket train to get my water up from the basement to my holding tanks, throw in the RO right, heat/airate and im good to go. easier than the hoop jumping i was doing before! :

The RO killed two birds for me, didnt have to treat/piss around with the tap water, and it saves me about 40 bucks a month in drinking water, plus my family and a few friends have been buying my RO so its working out good so far

My DI is starting to crap out so im gonna have to track some new ones down though.

Ive got a 10 foot closet im itching to put a rack into (my fishroom is a bedroom), ive already got the doors off, and the tanks around here keep multiplying. But im moving in 4 or 5 months so im still on the fence.