Three of my new Wilds!!!!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

WOW!


This is some Good Schitt!

[fishfarm]

Wow! This is what the forum should be about, not the usual BS!
I only know David Webber by reputation (a good one at that!, honest and forthright), but I do know Oliver and know he's been to all the places he says he has and probably knows more about wild discus than anyone on this planet! Degan don't know squat, his books are usless. (I know him too, we won't even talk about Axelrod!) Oliver was at my place a few weeks ago and by just looking at my wild fish could tell me the collection location of every one. I was amazed. I'm hopeing to go down to Brazil with him next November to collect, Cool!! Since the fish in this post came from him, I'd have to say he know where they came from and what subspecies they are. I agree all discus (except possibly heckel) are of the same species with geographic variations. Ain't this all fasinating!! David, if you are going to be at the ACA in July I'd love to sit down in the discus den and discuss all this with you. Ken

[Tristanyyz]

Little did i suspect my pictures and my posting "three of my new wilds" would attract such attention.

I beleive i should be seeking some form of compensation for attracting such expert "new" members. No, No. Being the center of attention is enough. 8)

I wonder sometimes if the truth of the matter is as interesting as the argument or opinion. Its true that we try to find what is actual, scientific, quantifiable, and classifiable. Fortunate for interest sake, the "actual" or "truth" or "prime" is difussed or hidden because of time or complexity. This makes for interesting conversation. And a more interesting pass-time.

Certainly, those with first hand experience combined with academic study, would seem to have the most informed opinions. Even still, this being the case, they remain opinions. Nothing is written in stone my friends. Thats what I like about this forum is that people use IMO, IMHO...and should be assumed at the beginning of each posting.

The arguments that I like are often the more colourful ones. I think its great that someone can make a book full of pretty pictures and offer it as a guideline for a species, a coffee table book, or a doorstop, such as the book I earlier mentioned. The Atlas of Discus. It is in these sorts of books that a new hobby"ist" can browse at their leisure, and formulate interesting connections about their own fish and chosen interest. Almost purely in terms of empirical observation, we can attempt to classify our little slimmy buddies. I know my DNA sampler is on backorder from ebay, so until my laboratory is set up, my eyes will have to suffice...Is it important whether its the "prime" or "truth" or "actual"??? Maybe, and Maybe not. For me, the fish sitting in my tank is not a Royal Green...its a Haraldi Blue, until such time that i determine its something else. Thats what hobbies are about, and thats what keeps them creative and fun. A pastime that one can derive enjoyment. My enjoyment is not becoming a biologist...if so, i would have gone about it in a very different way. And who cares how much this costs and how much that costs, how rare...to be honest, i liked the look of the fish, whether its rare or abundant...i hope its abundant actually, that way we can all have more. Money is but a minor obstacle when it comes to such gorgeous fish and interesting hobby. Besides you cant take it with you, so spread it around...(thats an old eastside saying).

As for the location, what fish comes from where, I hope people like Oliver keep going to those places...because i want more of these puppies. In fact, i would like to come with him, drink beer, doing a study on the RHEINHEITSGEFORT (buddy) while in s. america, get drunk, fall into the Amazon, and catch a few myself...assuming i dont get eaten by canibals, or come out of the water with a billion leaches, i would consider it alot of fun! Jimmy why dont you come along too? The sight of the three of us together will make the cannibals think twice!

In the meantime, its all opinion, some more informed than others...of which, mine being the least! Thank you for your insight Oliver, and I look forward to more discus for my tank...my 150 gallon is starting to look small to me, i think i should have strapped that 200 gallon in your backyard to my car after all.
Michael

[jim_shedden]

great thread...........thanks

jim

[Tristanyyz]

Ummmmm...wildthing, i caught my curipera lifting his leg as he pee'd on one of my terra cotta pots. ;D

[belowwater]

Same thing, quoted David so that all is on the same page
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the Amazon distance is relative, 300k is not much at all , 100k is backyard. Even in the small US rivers there is no difference between a catfish caught at the mouth of the Mississippi or one caught 700 miles upriver, despite its natural barriers & massive seasonal flooding, so why shoule 300k on a river over 4000k long by itself be considered adequate for speciation? respectfully I disagree with you , that distance in that location is hardly enough for variation let alone speciation, & every season new fish are moved into that area with the seasonal flooding, just to blur the picture even more."

You can not compare the Mississippi because it is in the Northern Hemisphere, temperate regions do not have the same diversity and speciation as tropical ones. That is why we have '100' fish species in the Mississippi and thousands in the Amazon, Congo etc etc. The Mississippi basin also has no natural barriers for its endemic species except for the small ones and wouldn't you guess it there are DOZENS of endemic darter species in neighbouring creeks. 100kms in the tropics is a massive distance for any group of animal. Even discus. Discus are a relatively successful design but they are not a fast spreading species as can be seen clearly by their very limited distribution compared to angels (found north of the Guyana SHield! the Orinoco basin...), Heros (in the Orinoco basin!) and Peacock bass (Cichla).

"Corydorus & Discus are not a good comparison, apples & oranges,* & Africans are quite a long way from the Amazon & the mechanisms are different. How about comparing Discus' nearest relatives there, Scalare, which have not speciated but are endemic to the whole Amazon, despite any natural barriers. ( & yes I know, there are also Altums & Dumerilii species)"

I am not comparing the two i am pointing out that the mere existance of endemic seperate small fish species is proof of the isolation of habitats. If they were to flood and mix this could not occur. Finches in the Galapagos if you want. Even the Iguanas are genetically different despite their ability to cope with the natural barriers between the islands.


"Distance is just one natural barrier, water conditions are another, land blockages are another, food availability is another. The physical barriers are relative to the size of the animal & to the general behaviour of that species. How far will* a corydorus that can latch onto a root or under a rock travel in a flood compared to a Discus that has to 'go with the flow' for the most part? Corydorus tend to stay put, Discus tend to move around ."

Discus stay so much in the same place that we have caught the same discus with the same deformity twice in two years under the same tree. Discus are specialized fish that do not travel well in muddy fast flowing water full of predators.

"Naming a fish for an Indian tribe or a manioc strainer or a local soccer team is total BS., it would be better to use a global positioning reference than those silly names. Better still to just call it what it is, by variety name first, location second, as the fish won;t change its variety but* location information is always dubious at best."

Variety is BS since we have just all agreed that all fish are of the same (sub)species. For lack of wanting to give my GPS data that cost well into the $50 000 over the past 10 years i will stick with the closest town.

"Variation & speciation are not the same thing, altho there* is a direct relationship. varieties can become species if they are isolated for long enough with a small enough population. the natural barriers you refer to between those 3 towns are mostly seasonal . "

The barrier is the Amazon mainstream and it is not seasonal. It is damn big any time of the year and it would be physically impossible for fish to get from Inanu to the Alenquer lakes. Nor is there a reason for the fish to do this.

"Water levels change in manuas by over 40' ( feet) each season, what is an Island in the 'dry' might well be under a lot of water in the wet. Seasonal changes are another driving force in speciation . IMO We DO need to generalize & not be specific about capture locations because many of the small local rivers don;t exist for half the year, their names are not universally accepted , usually* are not on any maps & often they will have moved their course during flood season."

They have not moved for generations the geographics of the Alenquer lakes and the Lago Grande do not allow for this to occur. If you go there you will realize this in minutes. Neither do the places where the discus are flood to a great degree.

"There totally are heckel cross fish in & around Santarem, I have some of them here* breeding, they used to be called Ica reds, they do not breed true. Heckels 5th bar is controlled by* recessive allele(s) , by F2 it has usually faded or dissappeared in domestic breeding programmes, if you bred them you would know this , & it should be expected to do the same when crossed with other wild fish with more dominant genes than domestics."

These fish have 0 Heckel blood and there are no Heckels anywhere near there. There are now four fish houses in Santarem and they are all collecting at locations our group has published in the past, two are ex-employees. If they are shipping Heckels than they are Abacaxis/Nhamunda fish and not Lago Grande/Alenquer fish. The prominent bar on the locations with the pronounced center bar remains in place beautifully and there are dozens of photos to prove it.

"The word I used was " suggests" , I still see the fish & the larger than normal 5th bar, it still 'suggests' heckel influence. There is no reason that a heckel could not find itself anywhere east of the Rio negro, even as far as the Atlantic. Of course the probabilities of* this happening reduce with distance but again, 100k or 300k in Amazon terms is right next door."

Right next door for a speed boat impossible for a fish of this built. There are lots of Heckel locations East of The Rio Negro, and i never said there were not any. But there are none as far east as Santarem.

"5 yrs ago for fish from those areas? do* you mean Alenquer & Santarem & Nova Olinda?...I disagree, as I have been getting some fish from those places for longer than that, perhaps 9 or 10 years ago...perhaps it was a well kept secret, but both aq Corydorus & Turky's were sending fish (supposedly) from those places* a long time ago, maybe 20 years. The books have photos from well before 5 yrs ago. Edgar at aq corydorus was one of the first to use the Nova Olinda name. Ascher Benzaken at Turky's ( Willi Schwartz's son-in law who now owns the buisness) was also using it a long time ago"

I referred to Alenquer and Santarem. Novo Olinda has always been an export point for both companies. The only reason they are building fish houses in Santarem now is because their customers are asking them for the fish with our location names. Until our group went to Curipera nobody knew it was the origin of the Red Eddy.
I am talking commercial exports. Both companies have shipped fish from these areas inadvertedly some time ago. The Red Eddy from Dr. Schmidt Focke was the result of one exported specimen female Curipera and a male fish from one of the other lakes. The Dr. tried to find this fish in commercial exports for years but was never able to.

"For Nova Olinda, Santarem & Alenquer all you have to do is look at a map & see the direction of flow of the water & knowing the common saying in Brazil that " in the Amazon all things are possible"."

Fish like discus do not travel with the flow of the water. There is no reason to.

"Also, no-one has yet answered* my question about the gender ID of these fish. I want to know what criteria you are using for the assessment of male* or female with these. Some seem to be " more sure of everything than I am of anything"
please tell us all how the gender ID was made, apart from the female with the tube down.
Thanks"

When you look at a lot of wild "blue" discus breeding you learn to see the differences. As can be clearly seen by my two biggest Inany males that spawned 400 eggs and are now carrying fry.

Back to the Victoria day celebration, God save the Queen.....and Herby Axelrod for being part responsible for the information in the first place.

David is correct in that Heiko Bleher's book on wild discus (the blue ring binder) was the first attempt to pinpoint the locations of the fish and mistakes were made....

O.
http://www.belowwater.com

[wildthing]

Same thing, quoted Oliver so that all is on the same page
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the Amazon distance is relative, 300k is not much at all , 100k is backyard. Even in the small US rivers there is no difference between a catfish caught at the mouth of the Mississippi or one caught 700 miles upriver, despite its natural barriers & massive seasonal flooding, so why should 300k on a river over 4000k long by itself be considered adequate for speciation? respectfully I disagree with you , that distance in that location is hardly enough for variation let alone speciation, & every season new fish are moved into that area with the seasonal flooding, just to blur the picture even more."

You can not compare the Mississippi because it is in the Northern Hemisphere, temperate regions do not have the same diversity and speciation as tropical ones. That is why we have '100' fish species in the Mississippi and thousands in the Amazon, Congo etc etc. The Mississippi basin also has no natural barriers for its endemic species except for the small ones and wouldn't you guess it there are DOZENS of endemic darter species in neighbouring creeks. 100kms in the tropics is a massive distance for any group of animal. Even discus. Discus are a relatively successful design but they are not a fast spreading species as can be seen clearly by their very limited distribution compared to angels (found north of the Guyana SHield! the Orinoco basin...), Heros (in the Orinoco basin!) and Peacock bass (Cichla).

If I cannot compare the Mississipi then you cannot compare African cichlids or Galapagos Finches & Iguanas, or temperate Vs tropical, nor hard water lake fish Vs soft water river fish ? neither are good comparisons, that was my point.
Much of the color differences in Discus appearance are caused by diet differences & local water differences, that soon disappear when they get into different conditions, Blue face heckels that lose their blueness, tefe greens that lose their green-ness, reds that lose their red-ness

"Corydorus & Discus are not a good comparison , apples & oranges, & Africans are quite a long way from the Amazon & the mechanisms are different. How about comparing Discus' nearest relatives there, Scalare, which have not speciated but are endemic to the whole Amazon, despite any natural barriers. ( & yes I know, there are also Altums & Dumerilii species)"

I am not comparing the two i am pointing out that the mere existance of endemic seperate small fish species is proof of the isolation of habitats. If they were to flood and mix this could not occur. Finches in the Galapagos if you want. Even the Iguanas are genetically different despite their ability to cope with the natural barriers between the islands.

You were using them as comparitive examples of speciation, their models don?t work, their environmental minimum requirements for survival are very different. Everything is genetically different if you want to look deep enough, even siblings, the genetic lines defining species are much broader than the alleles that control color. Maybe we shgould talk about the color changes in Cuttle fish or chameleons?
Finches in the galapagos have been shown to speciate in as little as 20 years, this speciation has been shown to be caused by extreme seasonal droughts coupled with very small populations As few as 3 birds are known to have caused the most recent Finch speciation there, in complete isolation as a result of extreme need, kind of the opposite from what happens in the Amazon, again a very different interplay of the mechanisms for speciation. Interestingly the Finches arrived on those islands totally by accident at the whim & mercy of the weather & for each one survived the storms that brought them there hundreds didn?t, just as I am suggesting for Discus in the Amazon. However, what we should be looking for is a model as close to what we are interested in as possible, so we need to stay in the same river system if possible & stay as much as possible at least in the same Genus. For me that would seem to be Angels, which face the exact same problems for survival that Discus face, like the exact same water conditions & are closley related Amazon Cichlids that are endemic & have not speciated.


"Distance is just one natural barrier, water conditions are another, land blockages are another, food availability is another. The physical barriers are relative to the size of the animal & to the general behaviour of that species. How far will a corydorus that can latch onto a root or under a rock travel in a flood compared to a Discus that has to 'go with the flow' for the most part? Corydorus tend to stay put, Discus tend to move around ."

Discus stay so much in the same place that we have caught the same discus with the same deformity twice in two years under the same tree. Discus are specialized fish that do not travel well in muddy fast flowing water full of predators.

By that argument Discus would never have travelled anywhere & yet they are all over the Amazon wherever the water is suitable with a few exceptions. In flood travelling is not necessarily an option they would choose, even people in boats are obliged to go with the flow & not against it. A fish may not be moving relative to the water immediately around it , but that water is part of a larger mass that is constantly moving. As you say, that fish was deformed, maybe retarded as well?
:lol

"Naming a fish for an Indian tribe or a manioc strainer or a local soccer team is total BS., it would be better to use a global positioning reference than those silly names. Better still to just call it what it is, by variety name first, location second, as the fish won;t change its variety but location information is always dubious at best."

Variety is BS since we have just all agreed that all fish are of the same (sub)species.

Variety is exactly the correct term for differences based solely upon external appearance , by the same token, sub-species is as misleading as implying differences just by creating different names for similar fish

For lack of wanting to give my GPS data that cost well into the $50 000 over the past 10 years i will stick with the closest town.

So I can take it that you are making up names for these fish to avoid giving detailed repeatable geographic information? Why? What is the difference between doing that & what Bleher did giving names of rivers like Ica & Icana to fish?
$50k for GPS?but everything else was free I guess? I have told you a quadrillion times not to exaggerate ( joke)
My GPS device cost less than $200 & I bet the locals who you go out with could find any location without GPS just by local landmarks.

"Variation & speciation are not the same thing, altho there is a direct relationship. varieties can become species if they are isolated for long enough with a small enough population. the natural barriers you refer to between those 3 towns are mostly seasonal . "

The barrier is the Amazon mainstream and it is not seasonal. It is damn big any time of the year and it would be physically impossible for fish to get from Inanu to the Alenquer lakes. Nor is there a reason for the fish to do this.

The last time I looked Discus were able to swim & they were not reasoning animals ( joke) . The Amazon mainstream is permanent, but it?s size ( width) and depth varies hugely from one season to another. It is the type of barrier that gets crossed by accident maybe, but it is in no way an absolute barrier like land would be. Fish populations are now being changed by the hand of man. To say that something is ?physicaly impossible? is unrealistic in the Amazon, the RSG pop in Peru is a result of mans? interference , is is also physically impossible for them to be there but they are. Jack Wattley wrote an article that he since denied in Diskus brief about how he had released a bunch of Discus into an environment where they previously did not exists at all. Many villagers & fishermen are creating places to keep captive populations of Discus so as not to have to go out looking for them, then stock them with fish from different places. Improbable maybe..impossible?.these water systems are all connected by water at sometime during the year, otherwise how could Discus get there in the first place? This happens in the flood season, when no-one is collecting either fish or data. It is hard to be standing in a dry place on a gentle river bank & imagine that in a few months it will be 40? under water, & a few months after that will be dry again


"Water levels change in manuas by over 40' ( feet) each season, what is an Island in the 'dry' might well be under a lot of water in the wet. Seasonal changes are another driving force in speciation . IMO We DO need to generalize & not be specific about capture locations because many of the small local rivers don;t exist for half the year, their names are not universally accepted , usually are not on any maps & often they will have moved their course during flood season."

They have not moved for generations the geographics of the Alenquer lakes and the Lago Grande do not allow for this to occur. If you go there you will realize this in minutes. Neither do the places where the discus are flood to a great degree.

I have not been to the Alenquer lakes nor your particular Lago Grande, but I have been to Tefe ( town river lake & region) , the Rio Negro, Rio Madeira & further east to the Rio Xingu. Generations of man is nothing, Man is the most recent inhabitant of South America.
Because something happens a certain way in a certain place doesn?t mean it happens that way everywhere else. You cannot extrapolate like that. All generalizations are false, ( including that one I guess) Discus have been evolving in the Amazon for over 100, 000 years, but still have only got as far as ?variation? & not true speciation. Because some fish remain at a location doesn?t mean that other individuals haven?t moved or been moved, either by the hand of Man or by Nature. There are still heckels in the Rio Negro despite some individuals from there having populated other rivers. Populations are not static & Discus are very good at moving into new habitats where they were previously not known. The Tucurui Dam was a good example of this, there was no dam & no discus there, then they built the dam, within a couple of years there were huge populations of Discus there, then they opened the dam to stop its use ( cancelled the project) You have told us about some of the biggest fish you have found being in fast flowing water, so evidently they cope well with that also.

"There totally are heckel cross fish in & around Santarem, I have some of them here breeding, they used to be called Ica reds, they do not breed true. Heckels 5th bar is controlled by recessive allele(s) , by F2 it has usually faded or dissappeared in domestic breeding programmes, if you bred them you would know this , & it should be expected to do the same when crossed with other wild fish with more dominant genes than domestics."

These fish have 0 Heckel blood and there are no Heckels anywhere near there.

This is an absolute statement that cannot be supported just because you haven?t found one. I may agree with you about the heckels not being found there, but not about their genetic influences.

There are now four fish houses in Santarem and they are all collecting at locations our group has published in the past, two are ex-employees. If they are shipping Heckels than they are Abacaxis/Nhamunda fish and not Lago Grande/Alenquer fish. The prominent bar on the locations with the pronounced center bar remains in place beautifully and there are dozens of photos to prove it.

Alenquer the town or the lake or the river or the region?
What % of their fry have that 5th bar? Only tank bred fish can tell you that because a 100% controlled count is needed to make that assertion, & plenty of breeders have found the heckel 5th bar to be a recessive gene, it runs about 15%-20% IME in the F1 when outcrossed & dissappears into a suggestion by F2. It is absolutely impossible to say if any given wild fish will breed true or not until you grow out the offspring .

"The word I used was " suggests" , I still see the fish & the larger than normal 5th bar, it still 'suggests' heckel influence. There is no reason that a heckel could not find itself anywhere east of the Rio negro, even as far as the Atlantic. Of course the probabilities of this happening reduce with distance but again, 100k or 300k in Amazon terms is right next door."

Right next door for a speed boat impossible for a fish of this built. There are lots of Heckel locations East of The Rio Negro, and i never said there were not any. But there are none as far east as Santarem.

I said ?influence??.most fish in that region are mixed heritage fish. There are no ?pure? heckels, there are plenty of obvious heckel crosses mixed in with plenty of similar fish but without that 5th bar.

Discus travel in speed boats too, & many have been lost overboard in sudden storms, but most swim to their destinations & are usually not in too much hurry. A population can move into new areas either by expansion of population by breeding or by simply swimming. It would only take a few days for a log to float down stream that far, how much quicker could a Discus make the same journey?, especially if it is being swept along in floods of biblical proportions.

"5 yrs ago for fish from those areas? do you mean Alenquer & Santarem & Nova Olinda?...I disagree, as I have been getting some fish from those places for longer than that, perhaps 9 or 10 years ago...perhaps it was a well kept secret, but both aq Corydorus & Turky's were sending fish (supposedly) from those places a long time ago, maybe 20 years. The books have photos from well before 5 yrs ago. Edgar at aq corydorus was one of the first to use the Nova Olinda name. Ascher Benzaken at Turky's ( Willi Schwartz's son-in law who now owns the buisness) was also using it a long time ago"

I referred to Alenquer and Santarem. Novo Olinda has always been an export point for both companies. The only reason they are building fish houses in Santarem now is because their customers are asking them for the fish with our location names. Until our group went to Curipera nobody knew it was the origin of the Red Eddy.
I am talking commercial exports. Both companies have shipped fish from these areas inadvertedly some time ago. The Red Eddy from Dr. Schmidt Focke was the result of one exported specimen female Curipera and a male fish from one of the other lakes. The Dr. tried to find this fish in commercial exports for years but was never able to.

Curipera the tribe?

As well & deservedly respected as he was, Dr Schmidt-Focke never went to Brazil & he had no idea beyond what he was told where his fish may have come from & he was supplied with fish by some of the people that we already have stipulated here were ?not exactly reliable? with their information. Haven?t you also said you were the first to go to "Curipera", in which case either E. S-F?s fish were not from there or you were not the first. He also avoided using specific place names & tended ( in his book) to keep to sub-species names first , which we also now agree are probably wrong ,& general tributary names ( with disclaimers) second
Not every fish from there stops in Santarem, or the other places, many are taken directly to Manaus, so are they now Manaus reds or Santarem reds or what?

"For Nova Olinda, Santarem & Alenquer all you have to do is look at a map & see the direction of flow of the water & knowing the common saying in Brazil that " in the Amazon all things are possible"."

Fish like discus do not travel with the flow of the water. There is no reason to.

There is every reason to, It is called ?following the path of least resistance? & is driven by the need to survive, all species do it constantly

"Also, no-one has yet answered my question about the gender ID of these fish. I want to know what criteria you are using for the assessment of male or female with these. Some seem to be " more sure of everything than I am of anything"
please tell us all how the gender ID was made, apart from the female with the tube down.
Thanks"

When you look at a lot of wild "blue" discus breeding you learn to see the differences. As can be clearly seen by my two biggest Inany males that spawned 400 eggs and are now carrying fry.

Yes, some fish will show obvious gender clues, but just as many if not more will not show any clues or even have reversed them. I have spawning wild caught females that I could have & other knowledageables still swear are males, I have proven males that show all the characteristsics of females in terms of head shape, size, tail etc etc

Back to the Victoria day celebration, God save the Queen.....and Herby Axelrod for being part responsible for the information in the first place.

Bad information based mostly on ego & libido.

David is correct in that Heiko Bleher's book on wild discus (the blue ring binder) was the first attempt to pinpoint the locations of the fish and mistakes were made....

O.
http://www.belowwater.com

Oliver is a good guy, fun & knowledgeable to talk to & he has good fish & excellent experience. He gets his fish one way, I get mine another, same thing for information resources. He has been to the Amazon many more times than I have, I have bred many more wilds than he has, we have different interests in that respect. The only rule that applies in the Amazon at all times is that there are NO rules, for everything there are exceptions & neither of us can talk in absolutes

[Paulio]

Awesome thread! I have waited a long long time to see something like this from folks that have real knowledge of the topic.

Thanks

Paul

[discus_nw]

Well, I would have bet pic #1 was a royal green.

Great debate guys. Very informative.... now i just wonder which one to believe. LOL Ha ha ha J/K
BTW, great looking fish that started this debate what ever anyone wants to call them, id be proud to call them mine.
Matt

[Francisco_Borrero]

Tristan, I think we should be grateful to you for showing your great fish, and unknowingly, initiating this great thread.
I know one thing, I have yet to see many more fish. And I hope to be breeding my wilds soon., and getting many more. Thank you, Tristan, David W., Jason, Cary, Oliver, and everybody else.
Cheers, Francisco.

[Jason]

WOW! now that was cool!

I've seen pictures of wild reds that look identicle to the latest "curipura" photo's and some that were a much brighter red, and high quality specimens, in Japanese publications dating back 9 years or more, if those werent curipuras what were they?

I've had low %tages of fry showing a thick 5th bar from w/c browns and domestic(F6) royal blues, in both cases breeding back to one of the parents and breeding two fish showing a heckel bar did not produce any fry showing a 5th bar on several tries.

so I can agree that a fish showing a heckel bar, may not have any heckel blood, but I do feel a wild caught fish showing a heckel bar would more than likely have heckel in its lineage.

[tolga]

This is one amazing thread. The point about the role of man on the spread of discus species to different parts of amazon is especially interesting. I’ve always wondered if some importers or other individuals deliberately add different types of wild discus to different areas in an attempt to encourage cross breeding.

[HappyFace]

O.

Really excellent thread.

Wildthing mentions discus losing their color when moving from one location to another due to feeding and water differences. Does this apply only to wilds? Could this explain why discus look different in my tank than the seller's, the feeding and water condition were different? Is there a standard "water condition" for discus keeping that optimizes their color/pattern - such as a specific hardness or PH?