CBW study

[fcdiscus]

I don't know! I seem to have done my own study. I have used them for a year now. I have hardly any disease. I would say none, but there are occasional fluke bouts to deal with. My fish are very fat and prolific. I have not seen a tapeworm in a long long time. I am sold, but I do agree- to each his own. Frank 8)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Dennis,
Way to go as far as Being a stand up Guy thats honest!
Hats off to You.


As far as a cbw study goes Me and Dw allready did one that we shared here on this site.
Boy how soon we forget! Anyone! do we still have that post?
Anyways we are doing another one here real soon. As far as the last report the sample came back CLEAN!

Hth
Cary Gld!

[Johnlee]

About tests that have been performed on blackworms.
I also remember seeing here some time ago that some members have had tests done.
Can you enlighten us about what kind of tests were done
and what the results were.

johnlee

[Ardan]

Thanks Dennis for the honesty and letting us know. 8)

It wasn't your mistake.

[wildthing]

[quote author=CARY_GLdiscus link=board=1;threadid=10012;start=15#104466 date=1054250977]
Dennis,
Way to go as far as Being a stand up Guy thats honest!
Hats off to You.


As far as a cbw study goes Me and Dw allready did one that we shared here on this site.
Boy how soon we forget! Anyone! do we still have that post?
Anyways we are doing another one here real soon. As far as the last report the sample came back CLEAN!

Hth
Cary Gld!
[/quote]


Actually I think that between us me & Cary had 5 seperate samples analysed. I certainly had it done 3 times, all CBW's from Dan at aquatic foods.
All tests done by the Univ. Georgia vet path dept who specialize in fish diseases.
All tests produced the same results....
NO parasites of any desription. Plenty of bacteria, but nothing that could be identified as harmful.

Also, CBW's are a tubificid worm & related to tubifex so the research Dennis referred to is not totally irrelevant.

It matters where you get them from, so get them from a proven clean source ( again , I recommend Dan, as we already know that answers to how his are farmed)

It matters that you keep them clean & well rinsed at home also.



David

http://wilddiscus.com

[bettatalk]

Hi everyone.

Faith here, I just signed up to this forum to share some thoughts about cbw. I host bettatalk.com the largest betta site worldwide. I am preparing one of the most indepth article about cbw and doing research. talked to many people in the process and have new thoughts and theory linking cbw to fish death to share with you all.

I now strongly believe that in deed cbw and diseases are linked. All of you have noticed it, polls on my site have confirmed it, my own observations have, too. But i think you are all looking in the wrong direction. You are mainly worried about hex. CbW have been tested on and off for parasites and have not been found to be specifically proned to carrying them.

I do not believe that hex is what is killing your fish. In deed we in the betta hobby community have experienced THE SAME disastrous effect when feeding cbw for any extended period of time. My new research indicates that there are two potential problems with cbw (and no, Hex is not one of them ).

1)- pesticides. This is a possibility. Pesticides could be injested in large quantities in cbw. Cbw have a 80% water content. There are mostly a digestive system and some muscles. Inside the digestive tract can be stored a number of potentially very ddngerous things. One of which is a high level of pesticides. ingested by fish, it could poison the fish enough to lower their immune system and leave them wide open for EVERYTHING else resident in your water.

2)- now meet your public enemy #1, one hell of a disease that noone talks about but remains THE MOST WIDE SPREAD AQUARIUM DISEASE. Meet Mycobacteriosis, #1 killer of fish: bettas, rainbow fish and I am sure, Discus alike.

Here is the problem with Mycobacteriosis: It is incurable, infectuous and fatal snd almost impossible to diagnosize. It can stay dormant for up to 6 months and then pop up and kill your fish at the rate of 10 a day until none is left.

CBW live in ponds. MycoB lives in ponds. CBW live in the mud. So does MycoB. Daphnias have been founds to carry MycoB because they too live in ponds. Cbw could also carry it. How? By injesting pond mud and pond water. Cbw could then be simple TAXIS: MycoB is in the digestive tract, does not hurt the worm, but the worm then gets eaten by fish. Best way to spread MycoB? Ingestion (get my drift?). Fish eats worms, fish ingests mycobacteriosis and fish gets contaminated.

What happens next? MycoB lives dormant until fish is stressed (poor water quality, temp flux, fighting in community tank, overcrowding, rough handling, shipping etc...). Then immune system of fish lowers, MycoB blossom. What does it do? It forms scysts all over the fish internal organs SO YOU CANNOT SEE IT. It attacks the tissues until organs starts failing and fish dies promtly. Only a professional autospy of dying fish can reveal the infection. Most of you don't know where to send fish or have the funds to, so you never know what REALLY killed your fish.

Affected fish will exhibit A LARGE NUMBER OF SYMPTOMS: including but not limited to: wasting away (thinness of the fish which makes you think it has internal parasites - but it doesn't), pop-eye (eye ulcer), dropsy( kidney failure), skin lesion (dark colored), clamped fins, and usually sudden high death rate in your tanks that no medication seem to be able to stop.

RINGS ANY BELLS?

If you have had any of above, then all these seemingly different external symptoms all came from one SAME disease: Piscine tuberculosis (aka Fish TB or Mycobacteriosis).

If it can be carried by worms (and believe me it can) then your fish are next.

Most of all this is the only fish disease that is TRANSMISSABLE TO HUMANS. (yikes! Guess you did not want to hear this part).

It is imperative if you believe you might have it in your fishrooms that you WASH YOUR HANDS with antibacterial soap each time you handle fish/tanks and that you wear gloves to handle sick tanks/fish and that you NEVER EVER touch water or fish if you have any cuts or open sores on our skin. MycoB does not like our body's higher temps so it usually prefers to infect the skin surface only (which is cooler) but it is a nasty infection that only Ampicilin seem to be able to clear. Most doctors you will see will be clueless about it too (. A friend of mine who breeds got it once. Was hard to get rid of it.


So beware!!


Now the question we all have on our minds: HAVE CBW EVER BEEN TESTED FOR MYCOB? No. Why? Because worm farms do not test (I asked) for it and I don't think anyone else has ever linked the two together until me (now). I am searching to find if by chance someone out there did do the testing and even still one testing could show negative but not mean that all cbw are not carriers. After talking to cbw expert, he concurred that there is no reason why they could not ingest some MycoB is some was present in the pond's mud. So there you go.

I am still trying to find plates to test for this bacteria and condust a real test to have irrefutable proof in hand.

HOW I CAME WITH MY CONCLUSION: A friend of mine had a bad outbreak in his fishroom and lost ENTIRE spawns of almost grown up fish. This is not a very common occurence. I was fortunate enough to know someone who knew a fish pathologist who agreed to test 4 of the sick bettas. He is a worldwide expert. Results came back, Guess what? Mycobacteriosis. I talked to several more breeders who had same phenomenon, ALL of them were feeding live worms: The only common denominator. All had had this type of outbreaks before, some stopped feeding cbw and it never showed up again. few years later they decide to feed cbw again and within few months (remember that this disease can stay dormant for up to 6 months, it is a very slow growing bacteria), a new outbreak kills everything in sight !!!

So I believe my new theory is well worth exploring and taking into consideration.

I hope this help you out. Before I go a few words of advice if you believe you might have MycoB in your fishroom:

1)- treat all fish - healthy and sick alike with Kanacyn (the only medication that sometimes helps - otherwise disease is fatal and with no cure). Kanacyn may not help but if there is a slight chance it might, it is worth trying, no?

2)- immediately remove any fish that look suspicious from tanks. Why? Because they die very fast and may look kinda OK one day and very much dead the next morning. Otherfish will pick at the eyes and guts (favorite areas for MycoB to live) and become infected by ingestion. SO YOU MUST PREVENT CANIBALISM AT ALL COSTS.

3)- Get special bleach (for hospital) listing mycobaceriosis effectiveness on the label (there are out there) mix it exactely as indicated on label (otherwise it won't work). This is one disease that is very hard to get rid of andf you will have to bleach everything all the time.

4)_ count on it to haunt your fishroom for months (or years)afterwards so remain diligent and inspect all yoru tanks DAILY for suspect fish. Keep bleaching stuff regularly.

5) MycoB can also be passed from parents to fry, so beware!

For more details you can check my website when the article comes out (maybe in a couple weeks or so - maybe more LOL).

www.bettatalk.com

I hope I was helpful, feel free to pass this info if you so desire. Not sure if I will have the time to come back here but I'll try.

(PS: sorry for any typos or spelling mishaps, english is my second language and I'm in a rush)

FAITH

[Johnlee]

Hum Betta Talk
Intresting I must say.
Where's the Data? What background do you have?
I see a lot of my friends, I believes, coulds, it cans, ifs and so on.

"I was fortunate enough to know someone who knew a fish pathologist who agreed to test 4 of the sick bettas. He is a worldwide expert. Results came back"

Show us the data.

"pesticides. This is a possibility. Pesticides could be injested in large quantities in cbw. Cbw have a 80% water content. There are mostly a digestive system and some muscles. Inside the digestive tract can be stored a number of potentially very ddngerous things. One of which is a high level of pesticides. ingested by fish, it could poison the fish enough to lower their immune system and leave them wide open for EVERYTHING else resident in your water".

You confirmed that the blackworm farmers use pesticides?

"A friend of mine who breeds got it once. Was hard to get rid of it."

Are you saying your friend became sick from blackworms?

I believe the majority of this post is irresponsible.
That's my opinion

johnlee

Here we go again, ;D

[brewmaster15]

HI FAITH,
Welcome to Simplydiscus.

Interesting point of views you have. I have to point out some problems with your arguements though.

Blackworms and Pesticides. Blackworms do not tolerate pesticides well, so it is unlikely they will bio-accumulate them. California blackworms are actually used as a bio-indicator, and used in toxicology studies. Most pesticides that would be used in a crop would have a very negative effect on blackworm hatcheries if they were present. That said , pesticides are one of the most characterized chemicals out there, and are easily detected by labs with HPLC .It should be easy to rule that one out if you think it is a possibility. Keep in mind , you assume that all blackworms come from pesticide polluted rivers and ponds? Thats a big assumption without any evidence.

The second point, blackworms and TB. I have seen estimates that placed between 25-75% of all tropical fish from LFS as carriers of/infected by TB.. Suffice it to say this bacteria is very common everywhere now.

some info on marine TB...
http://edcp.org/edcp/factsheets/mycobacterium.html

The probelm with your idea here is an outbreak of TB doesn't affect all fish like you stated here...

HOW I CAME WITH MY CONCLUSION: A friend of mine had a bad outbreak in his fishroom and lost ENTIRE spawns of almost grown up fish. This is not a very common occurence. I was fortunate enough to know someone who knew a fish pathologist who agreed to test 4 of the sick bettas. He is a worldwide expert. Results came back, Guess what? Mycobacteriosis. I talked to several more breeders who had same phenomenon, ALL of them were feeding live worms: The only common denominator. All had had this type of outbreaks before, some stopped feeding cbw and it never showed up again. few years later they decide to feed cbw again and within few months (remember that this disease can stay dormant for up to 6 months, it is a very slow growing bacteria), a new outbreak kills everything in sight !!!

An observation on TB and Bettas.. And I am by no means an expert on them, but I believe you generally keep and breed bettas under conditions that are far different than discus..we tend to change large amounts of water daily.. bacterias like TB might be more prone to do as you described in tanks with very little water changes, as the bacteria would reproduce without population attrition by water changes.
.
Many fish will successfully contain this infection for years. and outbreaks in fish like discus, have symptoms where lesion often form on the body, and often times, dissections will reveil granulomas on the internal organs where the bacteria has been encysted.

within few months (remember that this disease can stay dormant for up to 6 months, it is a very slow growing bacteria), a new outbreak kills everything in sight !!!

-This is not accurate. TB does not necessarily kill everything in site. Many fish can survive it and do so as carriers. probably much like Humans with other TB's can carry it for years.

That said, I do not think that your assumption here are accurate. Thats pretty much as circumstantial evidence as you can get.You have not mentioned anything about the sources of these blackworms that were fed. No tests on said were done, and TB is testable. Who was the world expert , and is there a reason why the blackworms could not be tested by them?

Is it possible some are mistaking Tubiflex for blackworms?

some additional notes...

)- treat all fish - healthy and sick alike with Kanacyn (the only medication that sometimes helps - otherwise disease is fatal and with no cure). Kanacyn may not help but if there is a slight chance it might, it is worth trying, no?

How would you know if the med worked? The fish could be a carrier, with bacteria encysted. ALL fish with TB should be destroyed, IMO, or a year latter you might think it was a new outbreak.. ..Just for curiousity... The breeder you know that lost all his fry... when TB was diagnosed what did the breeder do ... Euthanize all his stock, or treat them?

I believe you have some things that are worth looking into, but I think You need to better understand all the parameters involved here. The link you are trying to make on pesticide is completely unfounded, and easy to prove either way if you are interested.,
The link on TB...Its equally possible that this bacteria is present on aquarium plants, in other companion fish, in imported discus that are raised with River water (it does happen). It could be raw fish , and shrimp that discus hobbyists/breeders feed as part of their beefheart recipes, It could be in frozen foods as a dormant spore. (I have never one food that said it guaranteed its processing eliminated all pathogens)
By all means please continue to evaluate Blackworms and diseases, Feeding live anything has its risks, but there needs to be a better determination of what those risks are, IMO, Then speculation and hypotheticals before they can be really applied to the hobby.

take care,
al

[Johnlee]

Al,
Very well stated !!!

johnlee

[NickK]

When I imported my fish earlier this year, I found out many Asian breeders feed tubifex worms (not CBW). If they are so nasty, why do they seem to have the best, biggest, show winning discus on the planet? Do you think they deal with these problems as much as this board's members do? I know these are open-ended thoughts, but I am just thinking out loud.

Plus, Wednesday morning I am receiving my first CBW order from Dan.

Faith's post scared the ba-gee-beez out of me. I was ready to cancel my order until Brew's post calmed me down!!!

Nick

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Really!


How dare You come here Betta Man And tell us we know Nothing about Tb + CBW's were not just some little boys and girls playing with Discus. we know more then You think How dare you talk down on us?

How Dare You come Here and say Are Doctors do not know what they are Doing? I'll have You know he is a top doctor who cured and saved the salomon Farms in the US back in the early 80s

To me it sounds like You betta boys are importing to many new bettas and thats were Your problem lies.

I'll also have You know I have a Betta thats 8 years old I never change his water and he allways eats cbws

Do not get me wrong Your post is good but the way You worded it is for the birds. You sound like a little old man who knows not how to use VCR And thinks he knows the world and all about it!

I say show Me the money or put it in writeing Don't come here talking about crap you think or heard.

Cary Gld!


http://www.med.sc.edu:85/fox/mycobacteria.htm

[Johnlee]

Nick
Where do most of the Bettas in the world come from?
Indo Asia, Malaysia, Singapore and most important
Thailand. Home to most of the wild Tubifex in the world
Guess what they feed their stock that they ship to the US.
No Blackworm farms there !

johnlee

[NickK]

Johnlee,
You are missing my point. There always is an active debate here at SimplyCBW.com as to whether or not CBWs are vectors for pathogens. However, everyone here seems to agree that Tubifex is much worse than CBW. If that is true, I wonder if the top Asian breeders deal with disease and parasite problems that much more than US hobbyists/breeders who feed CBW (since many of them feed tubifex). Does that make more sense?

Where is Sly? Are parasites and worms more of a problem in Singapore and Malaysia?

Nick

[Johnlee]

Sorry Nick,
Your point is well taken.
I was just referring to her statements about her friends bettas and the general imported betta population in
the US.
It is a great idea to receive some Asian input
about Tubifex.

johnlee

[discus_nw]

Thank you Bettatalk. I, at least, appreciate your efforts to share some of your ideas and conclusions. While it's true cbw's are used as an indicator for toxins, they do indeed collect toxins, such as heavy metals, in their tissues which inturn end up in anything which feeds on them. Hex was never really a concern I had with them. I suspected them as vectors for cestodes and carriers of nematodes, as well as a host of protozoans and bacteria. Others have, too.

The climate around here is that, now at least, cbw's MAY carry certain pathogens. This is alot better than about 18 months ago when it was catigorically stated they DO NOT carry pathogens.

Symptoms you have stated are typical of symptoms I have experienced. I have talked this problem over with other discus people, dwarf cichlid breeders, and killifish breeders. All have had identical problems. These problems disappeared after cbw's were elimenated from the feeding regime and fishrooms were disinfected.

I will be interested in your results from testing you plan.