CBW study

[brewmaster15]

Mat,

While it's true cbw's are used as an indicator for toxins, they do indeed collect toxins, such as heavy metals, in their tissues which inturn end up in anything which feeds on them

heavy metals are not the same thing as pesticides.., actually they are very different. All living things accumulate heavy metals. In this capacity they are no different than frozen bloodworms, beef "heart" , filet of fish, lean chicken breast, or the plankton/fish meal that makes its way into commercial foods.
Luckily this collection of heavy metals, pesticides and whatever else is supposed to bio accumlate is also easily tested at any tox lab. Perhaps the next time someone here does a test on blackworms, they can test for levels of pesticides and heavy metals.
-al
ps.. since we all know what you don't feed Mat , what are you feeding these days? what do you feed your fry and adults?

[keith_cny]

Faith,
Thanks for your post. I found it very informative. I do have some information you may be very interested in. I also would like to discuss some of your data about mycob in humans. Please email me when convenient.

Thanks,

Keith

[discus_nw]

Al,

I never said heavy metals and pesticides were the same thing. : Reread the quote you posted. I didn't even infer they were. ;D Heavy metals and pesticdes are both toxins, however.

As for what I feed my discus is of no consequence to this thread or the risks imposed by feeding cbw's. That is really the point of my opposition to the rah rah cbw posts on the forums, the risks imposed by the use of cbw's. As I said, it was catagorically stated on these forums cbw's are perfectly safe food for discus. This is untrue. Even some of the pro cbw users have changed their minds on that. I wish more would post their experiences here for all to read. Why they won't is beyond me. ???

But, to answer your question, I feed both Hikari Bloowworms and Brineshrimp, live brinshrimp, turkey/seafood mix, some beefheart mix, and Tetra Bits. I feed fry ONF I and II as well. Are these 100% risk free? I suppose not, but I can confidently say any risk imposed by these foods is insignificant to the risks of feeding cbw's.

[Denny]

Mat

for the most part your fish diet looks sound, But the turkey is one thing I would eliminate if you are concerned about disease transmission. I'll end there for now and not mention all of the antibiotics and other things they are fed.

[fcdiscus]

JMO- but I think CBW are much less hazardous than frozen Bloodworms- Bio-pure or not. Frank 8)

[discus_nw]

many would beg to differ on that Frank.

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
In this post...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...45;boardseen=1

I use 99% fat free gound turkey breast. You can use it straight or in a mix with or in place of beefheart. I generally mix with several types of sea mollusks, shrimp, and perhaps fish, either salmon or some white meat cold water sea fish.



why do you feel that feeding several types of mollusks , shrimp, and salmon, and other sea fish is safe compared to blackworms? do you think that cestodes , worms, and other internal parasites are specific for salt over fresh water? so if you feed the salt water creature to fresh , you are safer. It doesn't work that way if you do.

One of many examples...A common fish tapeworm...
Diphyllobothrium latum "The larva that infects people, a "plerocercoid," is frequently encountered in the viscera of freshwater and marine fishes. D. latum is sometimes encountered in the flesh of freshwater fish or fish that are anadromous (migrating from salt water to fresh water for breeding)"
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap26.html

Mollusks are a known carrier of the cestodes that you are concerned with blackworms possibly carrying. Shrimp are filter feeders that can pick up anything free swimming. Many species of flukes and worms are known to encyste themselves in the flesh of fish, waiting for a another fish to come along and eat them to continue the life cycle( and thats including fish at the market. Take some frozen ON formula 1 and 2 and send it out to lab, and see if its pathogen free as well

As for what I feed my discus is of no consequence to this thread or the risks imposed by feeding cbw's.

no it directly is not , but it puts the risks into proper perspective, instead of as a polar issue.

Thank you,
al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Larry,
Brew is right so far. Also I will post for all to read as soon as all the test are complete.

But I can tell You this right Now TB has been ruled OUT!

This test will be taken on clean rinced cbw and cbw right out of the pond.

It will also be on 3 month old Discus fry that only ate at CBW
And a few 3 year old discus that ate cbw and other foods.

Till then lets just wait and see OK?

HTH
Cary Gld

[discus_nw]

Al,

My opposition to feeding cbw's has been the insistance of a few that cbw's cannot transmit pathogen caused diseases by being secondary or primary hosts of such agents.

Overwhelming testimonies by many very experienced breeders of numerous fish species cannot be denied. Discus, apistoes, killies and now betta breeders have spoken out.

As far as what I feed my discus, it must be coincedental that I experience no health problems that cbw users do, including yourself. 99% of my disease problems came from fish I purchased from breeders feeding cbw's. The risks of feeding a seafood mix pales compared to feeding live blackworms.

;D ;D

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
Your Killing me Here!

my opposition to feeding cbw's has been the insistance of a few that cbw's cannot transmit pathogen caused diseases by being secondary or primary hosts of such agents.

-actually what has been said repeatly is that They have not been showed to carry the pathogens you speculate they have. You have been asked to repeatedly show evidence of the contrary and have not.


Overwhelming testimonies by many very experienced breeders of numerous fish species cannot be denied. Discus, apistoes, killies and now betta breeders have spoken out.
where did this occur? where are the details , and controls for all these overwhelming testimonies? Funny how you neglect all the ones That do use them and have no problems. They must not be experienced enough for you ?

As far as what I feed my discus, it must be coincedental that I experience no health problems that cbw users do, including yourself It must be coincidental that I feed blackworms and My fish are all doing jim dandy fine too. I have no fish health problems.

The risks of feeding a seafood mix pales compared to feeding live blackworms.
Thats a good one! I Love it. It doesn't fit ...so ignore it. I give you a scientifically proven link between a food you are feeding and diseases you are worried about and you brush it off as not relevent, but continue to preach the evils of blackworms without any scientific proof.

Evidence Mat.. just comeup with some hard evidence. Not I fed em and my fish died or I bought fish that were fed them and they died.... so they are the cause. Get some real stuff, fact not fiction. Hypothetically they can carry pathogens....Hypothetically so can anything. Prove it, or show where someone has.

The offer to help you with an experiment still stands. My point in this discussion is not to prove that Blackworms are clean and safe. Its to show that you haven't given any evidence they aren't. Even the study that was to be , didn't pan out. whereas others like Cary and dave webber have sent samples out that came back negative for pathogens.

I've said it before, feeding anything live has its risks, the key is to determine them and weigh the benefits. You need to determine those risks, and you haven't yet. Its that simple.

We can all go back and forth ad infinitum here over this. Keep looking Mat, and I'm sure some day you'll find something.
-al

[quote author=CARY_GLdiscus link=board=1;threadid=10012;start=30#105633 date=1054619749]
This test will be taken on clean rinced cbw and cbw right out of the pond.

It will also be on 3 month old Discus fry that only ate at CBW
And a few 3 year old discus that ate cbw and other foods.

Till then lets just wait and see OK?[/quote]


Id just like to say thanks to Cary for ONCE AGAIN stepping up to the plate.
NOT that you need to bro....The UNEQUALED QUALITY and HEALTH of your fish speak's VOLUMES all on its own!
Anyways....thanks.

Tony

[Rob R.]

Thou shall keep thy mouth shut. Why? It's just better that way. ;D

This thread is making me laugh....I dont think this is what Dennis wanted to happen when he started this thread...
Yes there are many people that feed black worms and many that don't......what gets me is why most people want to give excuses like Rob R. Thats the biggest pile of Sh%@ I've read yet........I sure would like to know about the SUCCESSFUL BREEDERS that he is talking about....This web site has many of the most successful breeders in the country posting on it and many feed blackworms. It seems like many people want to talk about "they know someone that" has or has not had problems with blackworms. If you want to tell me your reason why you do or dont feed them thats fine but dont give me this crap about I do or dont because a friend or breeder told me this. Give me personal facts that you have obtained. If you dont have you own personal facts I really dont care to hear what you have to say......Personally Yes I use blackworms and have never had any problems. I know people like Dennis do not...But I respect Dennis enough to listen to his reasons why....Dosent mean I will every change my mind but I will at least listen to him because I know Dennis like myself have been in the aquarium hobby for many years(30 plus) and has gathered his reason's why with his own personal experences

Randy

[brewmaster15]

Rob,
I won't address the majority of your posts comments except to ask you exactly what you feel these blackworms actually carry that is so bad?

from you on a previous post...
Do you feed blackworms to your fish? If so, that would be the first thing I would suspect. When I fed BW to my fish I had problems every few months with Hex and my fish had INCURABLE gill flukes. Now that I don't feed BW I no longer have these problems. HTH
so they carry flukes and hex... that should be easy enough to prove...wonder why its never been shown?

I have seen some breeders say they don't feed blackworms, thats true, but you are leaving out half the argument. Those Breeders you refer to don't recommend feeding anything live. But like so many out there, you overlook that part of in the CBW debates. Its not an issue of blackworms or not...its an issue of live food or not.


Just as an informational point of view I quote you here...

I feed earthworms everyday. Just throw them in whole, it gives the fish good exercise. I wouldn't use them if they come from an area known for pesticide use. If they are from your own yard and you don't use chemicals then you should be fine. I personally buy mine at the bait shop.. You feed live food everyday...worms from baitshop and are worried about disease from CBW. If I were you I'd watch for capillaria, and who knows what else.

If you are going to use the advise of someone in a discussion, state it a whole, not selectively. ask any breeder outthere that has a probelm with blackworms, and most will extend that advise to feeding anything live.

-al

[fcdiscus]

Once again the masked Breeders Appear! Damn, lighten up Rob! Frank