Filter thoughts here...

[DarkDiscus]

Al,

If you do the kind of water changes you do, you don't need the ACs - they are just a safety net. And they would help keep the tanks clean if you needed to take a few days off for vacation or whatever...

In the old days I used sponge filters alone on grow out tanks for a number of different cichlid species and found that the detritus built up quickly... but then I wasn't doing daily changes either...

John

[DenverDan]

on my 29 gallon breeder tanks I use 2 hydro sponges only, on the 55 gallon pair up tanks I use a hydro sponge and a aquaclear 300. On the 125 gallon and above I use 2 hydro sponges and 2 aquaclear 500's. Why? because it makes me feel better if I overfeed or miss a water change. What price is peace of mind when dealing with Discus?

But other than peace of mind, it appears that just sponges and water changes would be just fine, but is there a limit on the number of discus that you can put in a tank using this method? IE could you put the same number of discus in the same tank using just sponges, or could you put more discus in a like tank with sponges & aquaclears?

Dan

[brewmaster15]

Dan,
I think the answer to that question would be dependent on what you do for tank maintenance.


Technically both sponges and power filters with sponges in them are biological filtration.... and they are both mechanical filters. The difference is one is driven by air the other by an impeller.

all-
I know its aesthetically more pleasing if the water is clear, and I'm not trying to equate these two things.. but is "out of sight is out of mind" and I wonder how similar an aquaclear 500 is that isn't cleaned daily is to a gravel tank that isn't cleaned daily. Both can hide crude. Both are biological filters, and both give crude a place outside of the water table to settle. Personally I think theres probably little or no similarity but it makes you wonder a little. ;D ;D ;D


so how often are we all cleaning those prefilters and internal sponges?

al

[DavidH]

That's what I was thinking. I clean the sponges and pre-filters all the time cause it's easy. The box filters maybe once a month. I find gunk in the impellers and wonder if it's not just like a ug filter. Guess I could clean the AC's more but maybe it's more efficient and cleaner in the long run to just run the sponges. ???

[DISCUSDADDYSLC]

CHECK THIS ONE OUT TOOK MY HYDRO SPONGES AND SHOVED TWO INSIDE MY 350MAGNUM DELUXE.WORKING GREAT A WEEK NOW???

[Willie]

Dave_C:

I think its a common misconception that you can lose biological cycling by overcleaning the sponges. More likely, the sponges were not adequately cycled in the first place.

Here's a typical scenario when I clean out my 29 gal breeder.

1. Wiped down all surfaces, including heater, filter base, etc.
2. Vigorously squeeze sponges in tank water
3. Make 100% water change.

Under these conditions, I never lose filtration.

John Nicholson and I discussed this at ACA last month. He made a pointed comment about this, "imagine the world we live in if you could squeeze bacteria out of sponges"! I agree with him.

Willie

[Rod]

Hi,

Smaller tanks like breeders and fry tanks i use sponge filters only.

Medium tanks around 75gallons i use 2 sponges and a small powerhead with a piece of dacron cloth in it. I clean the dacron about twice a week under high pressure from the hose. Not only does this make the water clearer , but also distributes the heat better in the tank imo. Sometimes the current produced from air driven sponges is not enough to give even water mixing in bigger tanks.

Larger tanks over 100 gals i use 1 large sponge filter and an ac 500. I also have a couple of large tanks with side trickle filters, these have dacron sheets in the pre filter area and are rinsed a couple of time a week.

All the sponge filters are rinsed in used water about once a fortnight.

Rod

[limige]

i ditched my whispers and went straight to hydro's.


even in my 190 gallon tank i ran 4 hydro V's, 2 stacked in each corner, eventually made a wet/dry with a 500gpd mag drive, and i still keep 2 sponges in the tank for safety.

relying on mechanical impellors is asking for trouble, i've lost fish due to the filter not starting back up when i plugged it in. sponges are very easy to spot if they are working or not. and provide more than enough filtration.

with babies they must be rinsed daily, with adults i do it about once a week or so.

i see power filters as a waste of money and askiing for trouble, if you want more filtration stack the sponges, it's much cheaper than an ac or whisper, not to mention cartride cost.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Rod!

Medium tanks around 75gallons i use 2 sponges and a small powerhead with a piece of dacron cloth in it. I clean the dacron about twice a week under high pressure from the hose. Not only does this make the water clearer , but also distributes the heat better in the tank imo. Dacron Cloth! Now thats an idea...you created a micron filter of sorts. Can you snap a picture and give a little more detail?


Jimmy... I believe the Hydros are marketed as air driven or By powerheads.

DiscusDaddy...
CHECK THIS ONE OUT TOOK MY HYDRO SPONGES AND SHOVED TWO INSIDE MY 350MAGNUM DELUXE.WORKING GREAT A WEEK NOW??? be careful. I tried this a few months ago and because the pore size on the hydros is so small It clogged real fast. If you are using it like this...clean it often.... and use a prefilter.


hth,
al

[gary1218]

OK, I'm getting a little p'd off here that I seem to be the ONLY one that can't clean a hydro sponge without getting a little bit of a nitrIte spike. Willie - I wish I was in on that conversation with you a John

I have a good stream of air bubbles flowing thru the filters and they're usually running for two months or more before I clean them so I know they are well established.

For those of you vigorously cleaning them do you test for nitrItes a day or two later? Or, are you assuming that because the discus are acting fine that there are no nitrItes in the water? My discus show no signs of being stressed because there is nitrItes in the water but when I test for it I get a low reading. It's ususally gone in another day or two.

The entire bacteria colony obviously isn't totally destroyed but maybe enough of it is killed that it can't get up with the tank for a few days before the bacteria colony gets a chance to multiply again.

GARY

[O]

I've always wondered if it is possible to have too much bio-filtration? (Assuming that there's adequate aeration) If so what are the consequences?

hydros, power filters and wet/dry filters are very effective in removing ammonium & nitrites, but what about nitrate build up? I know this is probably not a big issue with daily WC's, however if the nitrate levels were controlled through bio-filtration, in theory one would require less WC's.

O.

[Liz_Streithorst]

O, I don't think that it's possible to have more than enough. The good bacteria won't exceed the amount of food available to feed it. If the bio load increased, the good bacteria will increase. If it delcines, so will the good bacteria. If there is no bio load, all you will have is a plain sponge which is harmless.

Liz

[brewmaster15]

Hi o,
You really can't have too much biofiltration, as the population of bacteria that is breaking the ammonia and nitrite is limited in its growth to that "food" and the surface area of sponges/tank walls it grows on.


Gary,
I don't doubt your problems. I do measure from time to time and never get an ammonia or nitrite spike.
So why is it that you and others report it and others don't?

I believe theres a good chance that it has to do with 2 things...

1....many bacterias require certain minerals to attach properly to a substrate. Case in point.. columnaris...needs calcium/magnesium. Displace these ions with Sodium and the bacteria reportedly doesn't attach well ( which is why salt is beneficial in treating columnaris)The twist is its dependent on strain...some strains of columnaris are inhibited more than others by salt. Water parameters may affect the ability of biofilter to bind.... Thats speculation on my part.


2.... It was always thought and still is by many that biofilter bacteria was Nitrosomonas (breaks down ammonia to nitrite) and nitrobacter(breaks down nitrite to nitrate). I thinks theres a really good chance that there are many other bacterias that may do this as well. Maybe yours are one of the others? I know alot of reserach has been done by Tim Hovanec at Marineland that shows the real bacteria doing the work is nitrospiro for the conversion of nitrite to nitrate.
http://www.marineland.com/drtims.asp

I think this indicates that all the players in the biofilter game may not be known yet. Some may behave differently.

Hth,
al

[RichieE]

Great topic. Its the dumb question I never asked :P. If your going to change 25-50% of the water everyday and your not useing carbon or other media what exactly is the aquaclear doing? If you need more biological filtration add another sponge filter or stack them and increase the air flow.
I use a sump and sponges on my larger tank and just sponges on the smaller ones. I'm toying with the idea of disconecting the sump. I'm growing out 17 fish in a 30 gall. with just one sponge. They will be 3 months old tomorrow and are just a shade under 3 inches. They will be moved to a larger tank this weekend with 2 sponges. The sponge is sufficient IME. I clean sponges twice a week very thoughly. I feed heavy and the water in a 3 gallon pail turns dark brown. I have not noticed any harm from the loss of bacteria but I have not tested for nitrate/nitrite/amonia spikes either.
If I were running one tank the costs of buying and running an aquaclear would be minimal. The idea of running more than that when I could use cheap sponge filters isnt appealing.
As a side note the pump that Jason is selling is very powerful. According to John at Jemco it will run over 50 outlets. It uses a minimal amount of electric and is VERY reasonably priced. Its a great option for someone thinking of mothballing power filters. HTH Rich

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I like them both on Some tanks!
But My best Filter is W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C