Color Inheritance

[alex1980]

Hi, I have a female pigeon checkerboard pairing up with a nice large white leopard(gray base) male. What will be the outcome?

Alex

[Rod]

Hi, I have a female pigeon checkerboard pairing up with a nice large white leopard(gray base) male. What will be the outcome?

Alex

Hi Alex, Interesting mix. Depending on your pigeon blood genetics you will get about 50/50 pigeons/white crosses, variable patterned. Maybe some brown based types as well, that is if the pigeon is also a het like the white.

Post a pic if you have success.

Rod

[Spyke]

With a white PB and a red PB, will the white be dominant? I would love it if more of the brood would come out with a majority of white on the body and less pattern.

[timmylucas]

Thanks for the guide. very interesting

[mee]

With a Heckel X, would a stripeless fish be the best bet for getting heckle barring on the offspring? Specifically I have a 9 stripe Heckel X which is crossed with a Turq variant (see my avatar). The fish shows dual heckel bars (5th and 6th). I would be happy to end up with more 9 stripes with dual bars, or perhaps even better yet some super fat single bars. Would Red, VS, Yellow, VS Blue have any disadvantages vs advantages when looking for a counterpart?

[Rod]

With a white PB and a red PB, will the white be dominant? I would love it if more of the brood would come out with a majority of white on the body and less pattern.

The white coverage of a pb is controlled by multiple genes, meaning that it will not dominate when crossed with a red. You should receive some progeny where the white could well have a full coverage, but If you want to increase the white coverage overall in the spawn, i would breed with an already white fish like white butterfly and selectively breed for the white color from there.

With a Heckel X, would a stripeless fish be the best bet for getting heckle barring on the offspring? Specifically I have a 9 stripe Heckel X which is crossed with a Turq variant (see my avatar). The fish shows dual heckel bars (5th and 6th). I would be happy to end up with more 9 stripes with dual bars, or perhaps even better yet some super fat single bars. Would Red, VS, Yellow, VS Blue have any disadvantages vs advantages when looking for a counterpart?

Heckel stripe appears to be controlled by muliple genes and as far as i am aware noone has managed to fix the trait in an aquarium bred hybrid. Actually , it is worse than that. Never mind fixing the trait, this trait disappears completely from the population within a few generations without more heckel blood being bred into your line.

Good luck with this one, i love this type.

[nc0gnet0]

Heckel stripe appears to be controlled by muliple genes and as far as i am aware noone has managed to fix the trait in an aquarium bred hybrid. Actually , it is worse than that. Never mind fixing the trait, this trait disappears completely from the population within a few generations without more heckel blood being bred into your line.

I have mixed feelings on this. If they manage to fix the heckel bar trait in a domestic line, won't the wild heckel loose much of it's appeal? How will we ever know if a reported wild heckel x wild heckel succesful spawn is actually legit? I beteventually, over the course of the next several years, they are indeed able to fix the trait. Time will tell.

Rick

[Rod]

I don't think pure heckels would loose appeal. The heckel x's i have seen, i don't think there is any doubt they are not pure and people will always want the original. Happy to be proven wrong though, i will admit it would be quite the gold mine to have an easy breeding strain that threw pure looking heckels.

I would actually take your bet Rick, i think this one will be an impossible challenge.

[nc0gnet0]

I would actually take your bet Rick, i think this one will be an impossible challenge

Your on!

So do you think all the heckle crosses we are seeing now are F1 crosses between a male heckel and a female domestic?

[mee]

All interesting stuff. Well I have three Heckel crosses, 2 males and 1 female I believe. Wish it was the otherway around for ease of breeding one with a heckel. I suspect some are familiar with my fish already. They do have very nice baring, and it will be interesting to see what comes out of my future spawns. (watching some tail slapping at the moment fyi).

[Rod]

Your on!

hehe. How long do you think you will need?

So do you think all the heckle crosses we are seeing now are F1 crosses between a male heckel and a female domestic?

No, they would be from variable sources. These types are quite common in certain parts of the natural range. So natural sources, along with the hybrids performed in breeders tanks. Either source, the heckel bar seems to disappear over a few generations.

[Rod]

All interesting stuff. Well I have three Heckel crosses, 2 males and 1 female I believe. Wish it was the otherway around for ease of breeding one with a heckel. I suspect some are familiar with my fish already. They do have very nice baring, and it will be interesting to see what comes out of my future spawns. (watching some tail slapping at the moment fyi).

Hi mee, Is your avatar the heckel x you are referring to? Looks fantastic.

[nc0gnet0]

hehe. How long do you think you will need?

Hold on now, I didn't say I wold be able to fix the trait I say they (aka asian breeders) wold be able to fix the trait over the course of the next several years lol.

In my mind, my definition of fixing the trait would be getting a pair of heckle "x's" to breed 50% true (like a snakeskin or red/white) for at least three generations. What would your definition be?

Rick

[mee]

Hi mee, Is your avatar the heckel x you are referring to? Looks fantastic.

Yes, that is the first one I got, I have two more now. The avatar is the only one with 9 stripes and dual heckel baring though.
here's a video of the other two when they first came in. The male is colored down in the video, and the female is showing all of her bars. (now usually she shows just the one, and his is thick and dark now too. His halo is a bit muddy, and she really has the best color but he really has allot of beautiful reds. Plus he is about 7 1/2 inches !



I am an American breeder in Asia, so I will throw my hat in the ring and try to be the one to fix the trait

[Rod]

Hold on now, I didn't say I wold be able to fix the trait I say they (aka asian breeders) wold be able to fix the trait over the course of the next several years lol.

In my mind, my definition of fixing the trait would be getting a pair of heckle "x's" to breed 50% true (like a snakeskin or red/white) for at least three generations. What would your definition be?

Rick

Strain definition was on the agenda I wanted to get a time frame worked out first.....you say you need 3 generations, sounds good and i agree to that.

Your definition of strain i will also agree with for this purpose. Remembering that snakeskin and red/white are really heterozygotes, and i question wheather a heterozygote could ever be considered as a true strain due to its inability to produce consistent looking progeny. But, i don't think even 50% is possible in 3 generations with the heckel bar, i'm guessing 25% at most, more likely 5 to 10%.

My own definition of strain would be most traits are at fixation within the population. Because the heckel bar trait appears to be controlled by muliple genes, then i would accept variation in the formation of the 5th bar(just like the wild heckel?), but i think they should all carry at least a hint of the heckel bar before you could safely put them in the strain catergory.