? for hobbyists with Curipera

[derrickTC]

Just out of curiosity. which of the following three fish are Curipera's and why? these pics are taken from your site I believe. so you should know which ones are what, what I like to know is why and How could someone make a distinction? paying 250 bucks a piece i would like get the right kind wouldn't I?

[derrickTC]

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[derrickTC]

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[gang_mary]

Well~ I can't tell Anglo-Saxons from Celtics...I believe most of you can't tell Japanese from Taiwanese either.AS to wild discus, to ID a unknown origin discus is not necessary IMO,however,I believe gene does matter.To me the quality is more important than price altho I like nice and cheaper fish.

Cheers,
Lee

[AEI]

To Derrick,

please read my first posting carefully.

I explained that real Curipera has a horizontal turquiose line in the anal fin in combination with the open turquiose circle anround the eye and the true red colour.

the first pictures shows a super selected fish from lago grande ( watch the anal fin!!! ) which was labled as "Alenquer Lago Grande" on my homepage.

The third picture shows the Curipera which made the second place on last german discus championship!

best regards,
DANIEL MATTHÄUS
Amazon Exotic Import
www.goslinea.com

[derrickTC]

Thanks Danielle,

What about the second? Now go back and look at all the pics that are posted here as curiperas and tell me how many have both those representations you described? which leads me to believe this is not a gene isolation, if in fact there are all from the same location, which you said they are. In which case all F1's may or maynot retain the two characteristics you are talking about or even the color from the parents. So why should I pay 250 buck for it again? For the red? they don't look any redder than some of the sanmerahs and no where closer to the Pigeon based reds.


Lee
what gene? I have yet to see a F1 from these fish maybe I may change my mind then. post some pics when you have them.

[gang_mary]

Derrick,
What gene? ???come on~what I mean is the gene coded red body color,not only in Curipera but other red wilds,I was told Curipera is the best,so I bought some for breeding,that's my choise. Your point is the price,but I usually need to pay much higher for a good red wilds altho they are not Curipera,and other special wilds as well.
The only F1 pics I can find are here
http://hw001.gate01.com/fujii/breeding1.htm
they are 1 year old youngs.How about to ask Mr.Fujii his opinion?
,I will not compare wilds to domestics that are usually ugly color fed shits :Peven gill plate is bright red
well...tell me how many pigeons(as you know it's a melanin mutated strain that make it show special body base color ) or sanmerahs without color-enhance have you ever seen redder than those reddest wilds,IME, very very few.I know Asian domestics very well.

Lee

[AEI]

Jimmy & Derrick:

the first picture derrick posted is not curipera, this is just an outstanding fish from lago grande! it has not the typically horizontal line in the anal fin ( maybe it can not be seen so good on this pic).
the second and third picture is curipera.

You can find solid red, royal ( with red base colour ) and red fish with heckel bar at curipera.

the F1´s show the reddish colour from about 5cm on and turn into very intense red colour. Of course some will have more blue lines some will have less.

Please don´t compare Curipera to sanmerah or pigeon.

AGAIN: Curipera can not cross with other discus. They don´t have contact to other discus. They are genetic.

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
Amazon Exotic Import
www.goslinea.com

[O]

Daniel,

Any idea how discus got into the lake?
This type of natural isolation should produce a completely unique species over time. From what I have seen there seems to be two types(coloration wise) of curipera, with a heckel type bar and without. That tells me that they have a mixed gene pool. What are your thoughts on that?

O.

Thanks Gang: Mr. Fujii's site has proven the F1 do breed true with a characteristic eye loop and a 45 degree lines. Now the question is to keep or not to keep my Curipera cross after I've seen those F1. We shouldn't waste our time to raise them up.
Jimmy.

[derrickTC]

Thanks for proving my point Lee, I know you would dig that link up. My point exactly at one year none of those fish show the so called distinctive marking or them while infact the blue coloration is the first that comes out in fry. Second they look nothing more than regular browns, I am pretty sure some will color up nice and bright. The point again is they don't breed true, the fact that they don't breed true is in fact a proof that there is not gene isolation. If the socalled lake is isolated and several generations of curiperas have been isolated from the rest of the population the offspring will be exact copies in charecteristics and color. There is something fishy about these claims. :-X :-X

[brewmaster15]

Hi Daniel,

I have some questions for you ..

1) have you been to this lake and physically seen These fish collected there? Do you have any photos you can share of the collection site.? Exactly how small a lake are we talking here?

2) Does a river lead out of that lake as an overflow.. and If a river leads from that lake as over flow .. why are you so sure there are no chance that other strains made it there or can? Obviously by the variations it appears that there is not a fixed gene pool there... If there was... These fish would be Identical. As a reference I draw your attention to the fish that Alberto from Aquatechnics sells from the nanay river.. Look at how similar these fish are in shape and markings and this artificial population hasn't even been established a fraction of what an isolated population of "Curipera" would be.

http://www.aquatechnics.net/nanay.htm

The Problem I have with this being a truely isolated population in a lake is you would most likely lose those variations... unless they were being repeatedly introduced. albeit on a low level.

3) I have heard proponents on boths sides of the spectrum say this fish either breeds true or doesn't. Is special or isn't . To date I have seen one example posted from the Curipera breeding,,,The link for

http://hw001.gate01.com/fujii/breeding1.htm

I do not see how you or anyone can be sure at this point that this fish will breed true? Even if This population is isolated... which is hard to believe for a discus.. Is it safe to really say that It breeds true when proof is lacking. Do you really know that there are no other strains in that lake? even in small numbers?...perhaps favoring areas not collected in?


How many do you know of that have bred this fish ? and can you direct them to us here, or give us their contact info? I believe the only way this matter will be put to rest is with Proof. Otherwise we as hobbyists are left with the "word" of suppliers that are competitors.

Conversely I feel I should mention that I have been told that for a discus to "breed" true It only needs to do so at a rate of 60% to be considered a true strain. Based on your experiences does the curipera meet or exceed that percent?


I will also take this opportunity to remind everyone that this discussion is to be kept on civil terms., Please refrain from personal attacks.


Thanks,
al

[gang_mary]

[quote author=derrickTC link=board=1;threadid=14976;start=45#msg157328 date=1072804229]
Thanks for proving my point Lee, I know you would dig that link up. [/quote]

hehehe~no surprise hunh

the evolution of wild discus is not certain IMO,I saw some true breeding offsprings of heckel discus without 5th bar before and some red TQ show central bar!
Also how to identify tree bred wild ??? if the central bar is atavistic ??? or maybe RSG is their ancestor ???God knows...

[O]

Al,

You've raised great points. I think this is a good discussion if we take the politics out of it. :-\

O.

[gang_mary]

the sight of lake, only Japanese
http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/%7Eamazon...port/AL-4.html