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Thread: Experienced Breeders please Stand up

  1. #31
    Registered Member limige's Avatar
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    lol cary, we don't force pair we just let them work the field, lol.


    Hi All,

    I've posted this in the Breeding section however it did not much attention there.

    I'd like some feedback on the breeding practices of some our more experienced members. It would be great to have a beginner's reference thread in the breeding section.

    What's the typical breeding tank set up(size, filtration, lighting etc.)?
    29 gallon, 1 sponge, 1 heater, either a stand pipe or cone.

    How do you choose your pairs?
    Do you wait for them to pair up in a group or force two known breeders together?both, either put an old pair in a community tank and watch who moves in or wait for a pair to form, once sexed you may force your pairs

    What are the water parameters? 50-120ms, ph6.5-7, temp 84
    How do you induce spawning? if needed, i'll change conductivity/ph
    How many of you are using RO/Tap mix, Peat water, or straight tap?straight tap to start, r/o mix once she's spawning regularly
    How do you condition your pairs for breeding (feeding regiment, temps etc)
    i'll do a prazi treatment for worms and feed live california black worms.
    Do you clean(medicate) your pairs prior to spawning?
    see above
    Do you use cones or PVC?
    all of the above, pvc and flower pots mostly
    Do you use mash to cover the eggs?
    no
    What do you do after they spawn? How do you treat the eggs to prevent fungus?
    i feed only cbw to pairs, this avoids the whole fungus matter.
    What temperature, water parameters do you maintain after the spawn?
    same
    WC schedule after the spawn?stop wc once wrigglers, and once attached i do 30-50%, once feeding bbs 50-70%
    Feeding the pair after the spawn ? what type of food and how often?cbw after fry attach

    Basically, I'm looking for your experiences and preferences. Tell us what works for you.

    Thank you.
    Oleg.


  2. #32
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Dennis and Cary

    I call it a PARTY!!!


    Miles

  3. #33
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    nice write up mike

  4. #34
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Hiimmmmm,great thread,but I am unclear on a few things...quite a while ago this question was posted and a lot of the breeders stated that they keep the breeder tanks at a lower temp...79 to 81 to induce spawning...Now I see that everyone has the tanks at least at 83-84.....
    Also I have been told by some breeders to not change water for a week or so to help induce spawning,not to wipe the insides and leave them alone to do their thing
    Maybe this is the reason why my guys spawn in the comm.tanks but then when I move them to the breeder tanks they don't do nuttin !!!!!
    Guess I will bump up the heat and see what happens.
    Other water values are...Temp 79 to 81....hardness....50 to 80 ms......ph...7.0 to 7.3......
    Ok time to go turn up the heat and wait for the fry.....I hope....

    Mench

  5. #35
    Registered Member JeffreyRichard's Avatar
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    I wrote this artical several years ago for the defunct DSG ... enjoy

    An Approach to Successfully Breeding Discus
    Jeffrey Richard


    I recently volunteered to assist the team diligently recreating the Discus Study Group. My first assignment is to “write an article on whatever experiences I had with discus”. Since breeding discus is such a overriding goal of many discus keepers, I thought I’d share my experiences and thoughts with the DSG community. (Note … The DSG never took off).

    First, a little about our operation (now defunct … I still breed but at a very small scale). I say “our” because my wife Carol and I together started an Angelfish breeding business over eleven years ago. She has been invaluable with the business, cleaning tank and organizing (while I “plan, grow, market, and kibitz” … all the easy stuff). We started with 10 or so tanks we picked up from another breeder leaving the business (very common), and eventually grew the business to over 150 tanks and 3500 gallons of water.

    About seven years ago we acquired our first discus. A fellow breeder in my local club traded me 12 solid cobalt discus (Wattley Discus I believe) for a couple dozen angelfish. Boy, did I feel like I took him for a ride! Actually, we became good friends and in fact traded many fish over the years (this is a real good way to acquire stock … more later). After 10 months, we got our first pairs … I think I got 4 pairs from the original dozen.

    I made several real good contacts after this, most notably Ellen Halligan of Long Island Discus. She really helped us out quite a bit by provided us more stock and solid advice. We grew out and sold this stock, keeping enough to get more pairs. We continued trading, buy stock to grow out, buying adults and breeders from folks giving up the hobby, and lucking into gifts from acquaintances.

    Currently we have 20 pairs set up, and during peak production we have up to 1000 fry we grow out. We have “standard” red turquoise, solid cobalts, wild greens & browns, blue diamonds, red diamonds, snakeskins, golds, Marlboro Reds, Leopards … a fair representation of available strains today. We raised over 10,000 fish during the past seven years … I guess a testament to some level of success!

    One note here … we are in the process of downsizing. All this effort has taken a toll. But that’s a story for another article …

    A “Fool-Proof” Method

    Hopefully I’ve established a level of credibility with you regarding breeding these magnificent creatures. Now let me share with you my “Fool-Proof Method” … guaranteed to produce thousands of fabulous fry for resale or personal enjoyment. Are you ready?

    Before I share this secret, I need to ask you … I have some wonderful property for sale in Florida you may be interested in (so what if it’s under water). How about being a shareholder in my “Brooklyn Bridge Ownership”? How about getting in on the start of my investment pyramid?

    Ok … I guess my attempt to make a point here is a bit weak … but just as these “offers” are scams, so too is any “Fool-Proof” method for breeding ANY fish. The same holds true with any “right” methods, or “my way is the best/only/easiest/etc way”. My point? There are many ways to breed discus, and no way is a sure way, or the right way, or the easiest way.

    The “best” way is the way that works for you. I know what you’re thinking …”Dah”., This sounds like a cop-out, but work with me here.

    This is the important point. Study as many different approaches as you can. Understand the basics and practices them. Try different ways until something works and you can maintain and replicate it. And don’t be afraid to change things. Believe it or not, the more you try and fail, the more you learn. Apply this knowledge to each successive attempt, and you should be successful at some point. Knowledge is the key!

    So I’ve laid the groundwork with some high level thoughts. Let’s get into “doing it”.

    Acquiring Stock

    There are many sources for discus … just check the web. I won’t go into which breeder or reseller is good or bad here.

    My one piece of advice here is simply “acquire quality stock”. However or wherever you get fish, make sure they are healthy and without defects.

    As I alluded to early, trading stock is certainly a viable way of getting new discus varieties. There are many breeders around who have one or two varieties they breed, and would like to get something different. Find these people (via web forums, emails, word-of-mouth) and barter with them. Some of my best stock have come from friends I’ve made just trading my wares and advice. Remember, the Web can be your friend, so use it!

    Acquiring Pairs

    The first challenge you have is to come up with breeding pairs. Sounds simple … until you want a pair. First of all, discus are fairly difficult to sex. I have had some success sexing using a method that I found in Discus Brief (future article for the DSG). Also, when you’ve observed discus for a period of time (years … not hours) you tend to develop a sense as to what are males vs. females in any given community tank. However, the simplest and most accurate way is to let pairs form from groups of mature adults. Pairs will form in most populations and you can spot them if you spend time observing the behavior of you group. If the fish are conditioned properly and if they have proper conditions, they should spawn in the community tank. Undermost circumstances, spawns in the community tank will not survive. You’ll need to move the pair to their own breeding tank at this point if you want babies.

    OK, you say … I let my pairs form naturally. But I never get the combination of fish I want. Well, I have had success pairing up fish myself. One way is to just take 2 discus you think are male and female, and put them together in a separate breeding tank. If you guess right on the sex, and they are properly conditioned, and the water is correct, and they LIKE each other, they should spawn. If it seems like a lot has to be right for success here, you’re correct. The way to better the odds of creating breeding pairs is to have a a number of pairs set up. The more pairs you have the better chance of success you give yourself.

    Another way of getting the combination you want is to have groups of desirable fish in a “pair-up tank”. Give yourself at least 6 fish in the group and put them in a 70 to 125 gallon tank, and let them pair up. You should get at least 1 pair out of a group of 6 … with luck you’ll get 2 pairs (or strike it rich with 3 pairs!).

    How about just buying a breeding pair? There are pros and cons to this. I sell pairs, so I don’t want to put down this approach. However, buying a pair is no sure thing. First of all, they are (usually) expensive, costing anywhere from $200 to several thousand dollars. Second, just because they breed in one situation, there is no guarantee that they’ll breed in your setup. Pairs can be finicky, so beware. However, I have had lots of success acquiring pairs and having them breed for me, and having my pairs breed for folks I’ve sold them to. Just understand that a previously breeding pair is no sure thing. Also, you need to make sure you are getting “full disclosure” from the seller. Most part-time breeders wouldn’t part with a quality pair, unless they had surplus stock, or the pair was no longer considered quality. If you have the money for a pair that you “gotta have”, go for it. Just consider it throw-away cash, for the reasons I described.

    Breeding the Pair(s)

    You have one or more pairs, and now you want fry. OK, here’s my approach:
    1.***Condition the pair. This is Fish Breeding 101. Give then good clean water, good food, and privacy … their own tank. I recommend at least a 20 gallon High, or better a 29 Gallon tank.
    2.***Regarding food …I use mostly frozen food; bloodworms, plankton, mysis shrimp, beefheart. I also feed heavily with live blackworms. They are great for conditioning all fish.
    3.***Proper Water Conditions – Discus need clean, fresh water to breed … most active pairs I have breed immediately after I give them a water change (I give my breeders 50% water changes twice weekly). To be successful, you’ll need to provide soft, acid water. The breeders don’t seem to be motivated as much in high pH (above 7.0), and eggs will not hatch if the water isn’t soft. There are plenty of articles and advice on producing soft, acid water, so I won’t go into that here. I will say, though, that PEAT is a wonderful catalyst for inducing spawning … I use peat to filter my water in order to drop the pH, and this work’s great. If you are having trouble get pairs to spawn … give peat a try.
    4.***Exercise plenty of patience – I have had pairs that have taken over a year to get that first spawn. Like the song says, “You can’t hurry love, no you just have to wait …”

    Breeding Setup

    If I were to summarize my setup, I’d say “SIMPLE and CHEAP”. I don’t like to waste energy or money.
    •***I use 20 Gallon or 29 gallon Tanks … bare
    •***I filter with a single 4 inch x 4 inch x 4 inch sponge filter
    •***Use a heater if your room isn’t heated to 84 degrees.

    Here is a list of “DON”T NEEDS” …
    •***High tech filters … simple sponge filters work fine. Just make sure you change plenty of water
    •***Additives such as “Black Water Tonic” … use peat instead. See “Peat Filter” for details on how to create your own Amazon water.
    •***“Breeding Cones” … the kind that you can mail order for $10 or more. I use pvc tubing for my drain pipes and the pairs lay their eggs right on these stands. They’ll also utilize cheap flower pots or bricks. Don’t waste your money.
    •***Fancy lighting … I use shop lights above my tanks. Of course, aesthetics is not a requirement in my fish room.

    Preparing Water for Breeding Discus

    I am not a big advocate of altering water chemistry (dropping pH and softening water) if you don’t need to. Yes, there is a school of thought that says we keepers need to provide the absolute best/right water of discus. However, altering water chemistry can be tricky and can cause more problems than it cures.

    However, I have found that soft, acid water is a requirement for successfully breeding discus. If your water is not between a pH of 5.5 and 6.5 and the hardness is more than 100 PPM or 3 degrees KH, you’ll need to alter the water chemistry.

    To change the hardness of water, you can use RO or DI, and then use acids to adjust the pH. There are commercially available products which can do this, and there is much written on using RO and DI.

    However, I have had much success using PEAT to acidify and soften water. The natural tannins also seem to aid in promoting spawning … the blackwater of the Amazon basin is the results of organic tannins in the water. To create your own peat filtered water, you can use the following setup:
    Equipment –
    •***holding container such as a trash barrel (the bigger the better);
    •***powerhead (I use a Maxijet),
    •***tubing to attach to the powerhead … make sure there is enough to reach your fish tank;
    •***two 90 degree 1 ½ inch PVC elbows (forming a “U” which you can hang over the edge of the bucket and the breeding tank);
    •***large nylon filter bags or paint bags (I use 5 gallon bags and get them at the local home improvement store);
    •***submersible heater if your room is not heated;
    •***5 gallon bucket with several holes cut or drilled into the bottom (water must drain into you holding tank);
    •***large bale of Canadian Peat (again, I get this at the home improvement garden shop).
    Set up the equipment so the bucket is above the holding container. Attach the tubing to the powerhead, and feed the tubing through the “U” created using the PVC elbows. Hang the “U” over the edge of the bucket. Fill a bag with peat and tie it off, then place this bag inside the bucket. Fill the holding container with water, turn on the powerhead, and let the water circulate over the peat for 24 to 48 hours. When you want to fill the breeding tank with this water just move the “U” to the tank and let the powerhead pump the filtered water into the tank. Use the heater to keep the water at 82 – 85 degrees. Important point … peat loses it’s potency fairly quickly (depends on the hardness of the original water) … change the peat in the bag often! I change mine every 2 weeks.

    Spawning the Pair

    Patience is a must! They’ll spawn when they are good & ready. I have pairs that I swear will breed any day, and they have been together for almost a year without any spawning! If I had to give you one key it is the conditioning. Keep them in tip-top shape through feeding and water changes. Get in a routine and stick with it. However, don’t be afraid to experiment.

    Here’s a tip … try doing a water change with cooler water … 75 degrees. This often promotes pairs to spawn. Also, keep your eye on the weather. Storms will trigger spawning, especially when coupled with a water change.

    Hatching Eggs and Raising Fry

    You’ve set up your system … you have one or more pairs set up in their own breeding tank, they are properly conditioned, and they spawn! You check the clutch of eggs every few hours. Maybe you wake up in the morning, rush down to check out the spawn, and then you find them GONE!

    Don’t fret … this is natural for young pairs. Discus, in my opinion, need to LEARN to be parents. It may take a pair up to 20 spawns before they get it right.

    Parents are also very finicky about water conditions. If the water is not to their liking, they’ll eat the eggs and even free swimming fry. You’ll need to stay on the water changes.

    I will change the water in the tanks of pairs that have spawned. Most pairs don’t seem to care, but some will spook and eat the eggs. You’ll have to experiment to find out how your pair will react.

    Here’s something to keep in mind. While doing a water change I have actually drained the water below where eggs are in quite a few instances. The eggs have been exposed for up to 10 minutes while I refill the tank, and they still hatch! I wouldn’t recommend doing this as a matter of course, but it just shows you how tough the eggs can be.

    I let my pairs raise their own fry. I have tried artificial hatching/raising, and found it very unsuccessful and to be too much work. I have used “surrogate” parents … where I pull the eggs , hatch them in a small tank, and then re-introduce them to a pair that have recently been raising fry. This is a good way to get a spawn of those “must-have” babies where the parents just won’t raise them themselves.

    I let the fry feed exclusively off the parents for the first week. After that, I feed baby brines shrimp to the fry twice a day. After 3 to 4 weeks with the parents, I remove the fry to their own tank. There they get baby brine shrimp beefheart, and small pellets (such as BioKyowa 400 or 700 microns).

    Conclusions

    Breeding discus is not rocket science. Practice good husbandry and you should have success.

    If I have to summarize the key points I’ve used for success, they’d be:
    1.***PATIENCE … give the fish and yourself plenty of time to get things right. Don’t be upset when things go, because they will. Learn from them and move on.
    2.***QUANTITY … to give yourself the best chance for success, make sure you have multiple fish to choose from and pairs set up. This allows for downtime, experimentation and mistakes.
    3.***K.I.S.S. … Keep It Simple (Stupid). Don’t go nuts high-tech or expensive contraptions. Use your common sense.
    4.***LEARN … Find out what others do. Experiment. Don’t be afraid.

    I hope this provides some help and information to those who read this. If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to Email me at jeffreyrichard@hotmail.com or JARichard@statestreet.com


  6. #36
    Registered Member oodi's Avatar
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Jeffrey,

    GREAT article!!! Thanks for sharing!

    Judi

  7. #37
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    I know 2 people who breed in 7.2-8.0 ph one is does it for a living :P

  8. #38
    Registered Member GulfCoastDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Hi Richard,
    Your write up is worth saving. This should be in the archives. Thanks for the insight.

    Dan

  9. #39
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Nice Write up jeff

  10. #40
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Hi Rich:

    I've read your article. Your article is swell. Very nice write up. Thanks for sharing. **Angie**

    P.S. I've shared with Oleg my experiences of having successful spawns using NYC tap water which is already high in acid. Unfortunately, I have clown loaches!! The rest is history.

  11. #41
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    That's a really good article Jeffery thanks for posting it.

  12. #42
    Registered Member JeffreyRichard's Avatar
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Thanks for the compliments ... happy I could share!


  13. #43
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    What's the typical breeding tank set up(size, filtration, lighting etc.)? I've spawned pairs 29's. After the hatch, I take about 10gal out. This makes for a smaller tank and easier for the parents to find the babies. White Bottom Too.
    How do you choose your pairs? I wait for new fish to pair off on their own. I try and have a large tank with similar Strains. I don't want mutts. Sometimes I get lucky choosing a pair to mate.

    Do you wait for them to pair up in a group or force two known breeders together?

    What are the water parameters? 82-83F, 120 ppm, pH 7-7.5.** Randal proved to me that PH is overrated.

    How do you induce spawning? They spawn on their own. If a pair spawns regularly, then a water change will stimulate spawning. Drop the temp to 78-79DF. I also move things around in the tank, pot,pvc,plant. Change seems to give them the in the mood. You see them spawning turn off all the pumps so the water is still. This keeps the males sperm from moving away from the eggs.
    How many of you are using RO/Tap mix, Peat water, or straight tap? I have had some spawn in straight tape and Discus Buffer. I use R/O Mix. Accid helps with the PH, but be carefull!I was on vacation for 12 days. No water changes and cameback to 100 babies swimming.

    How do you condition your pairs for breeding (feeding regiment, temps etc) Sometimes don't feed them for a Day and then Live Black worms. Lower the temp in the water change. Some Change is good.
    Do you clean(medicate) your pairs prior to spawning? NOPE

    Do you use cones or PVC? I use cones, but it doesn't matter. They'll spawn on bricks, the side glass, on the heater.

    Do you use mash to cover the eggs? Hopefully never. I heard Ram fish added to the tank will keep the parents busy and bring on the Parenting skills.

    What do you do after they spawn? How do you treat the eggs to prevent fungus? Nothing. Air Stone near by.

    What temperature, water parameters do you maintain after the spawn? Bring the temp up 84-85F, pH 7.0. No R/O water. I want the minerals for the young to grow.

    WC schedule after the spawn? I wait until the fry are on the parents to keep the tank bottom clean. Maybe 25%. I do bring the 29gal tank down to about a 20gal. Once the fry are swiming and more on their own, I fill it back to 29gal. I see to many fry lost and can't find home.BOO HOO
    Feeding the pair after the spawn ? What type of food and how often? They get beefheart , Hikari Blood Worms and Diaphnia.

    Note the big Question:
    How long do you leave the babies with the parents?
    I leave them as long as I can!! As long as the parents are not stress and the babies are eating well. 4-5 weeks is average depending on the the size of the spawn.

    To me breeding Discus and how various breeders do it, is like talking about my Lawn Care with my neighbors. Each has THEIR way. HA
    Jack
    In Chicago/Lockport Area

  14. #44
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    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    Oleg>
    How do you recognized the new pairs in the community tank? Do you wait for them to spawn?

    Well the easy way to see if you have a pair is what I call the "Dance" The pair will swim by each other and dip and wiggle. Kind of like some humans I know. ;D

  15. #45

    Default Re:Experienced Breeders please Stand up

    What's the typical breeding tank set up(size, filtration, lighting etc.)?
    70x30x45 cm, sponge filter, no lights.

    How do you choose your pairs?
    I put 6 or 8 juveniles in a big tank and wait they grow to pair up.

    Do you wait for them to pair up in a group or force two known breeders together?
    I prefer wait, but some times try to force 3 in a 20g tank.

    What are the water parameters?
    pH 6,5 dH 0-10

    How do you induce spawning?
    Water changes.

    How many of you are using RO/Tap mix, Peat water, or straight tap?
    Just water with aqua safe, i need to buy a deioniser.

    How do you condition your pairs for breeding (feeding regiment, temps etc)
    Feeding with beefheart and after spawn only color bits.

    Do you clean(medicate) your pairs prior to spawning?
    No.

    Do you use cones or PVC?
    Cones.

    Do you use mash to cover the eggs?
    No.

    What do you do after they spawn? How do you treat the eggs to prevent fungus?
    Only water changes, i let the pair do they work.

    What temperature, water parameters do you maintain after the spawn?
    Same parameters and temp 28ºC up to 30ºC

    WC schedule after the spawn?
    "WC" ???

    Feeding the pair after the spawn ? what type of food and how often?
    Color Bits.

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