Contemplating major changes at SimplyDiscus...

[deseyered]

After reading that thread at aquabid regarding Hep and after some of the private conversations I've had with other discus people... I really really recommend getting the discus breeders up on a review section. It seems that maybe a common problem is that some discus breeders will rip off newbies in a heartbeat with fish that are substandard. Reviews tend to prevent that kind of thing.

Make sure you read my previous response on page 2 regarding the changes.

[Don_Lee]

This site provides breeders/importers that people can count on, I would not hesitate to buy from any of the sellers that are sponsors here. I believe that the sponsors here are the gold standard......
As far as chat goes, we never had argumentative problems on chat. Most of us were just there for some fun, and we had a great time. I miss the chat days, it is a way to really get to know some of the people on the board.

Don

[deseyered]

I have to be honest and disagree with that statement.

It does provide breeders and importers. I see that Al does everything he can to weed out the substandard people from his sponsor list. However, I've learned through some people that post here and other places that I still have to be careful because I might not end up with fish worth the price I paid because some breeders will only sell their good fish to their friends and not a newbie like myself. They will sell substandard fish to a newbie unless you tell them you will be posting pictures of the fish online here. Why should I have to post pictures to ensure that a seller is not going to sell me substandard discus?

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

Ur doing many things right on Simply and thanks for that. We "WANT TO BE PROTECTED" not only from unscrupulous sellers but also from buyers that generate too much negativity which makes me "DEPRESSED ABOUT THE HOBBY" I appreciate your "IRON HAND" in banning people for "UNETHICAL MISSCONDUCT"

I only have one complaint: After reading many old posts I feel that people are just tired of posting. Tired of discussions, tired to express their opinion, tired or being critisized, and just tired of saying the same thing over and over again. So I believe that YOU must do something to bring the same enthusiasm that you had when you first started back to Simply. I hope the changes you are thinking about will encourage all those that are discus experts to have regular discussions on each of the topic areas with us "non experts" It would be great if you could spearhead that and maybe start the discussion each month on a variety of topics.

On the topic of Banners and Site Sponsers, I think it's a financial decision that you have to make. Maybe you should allow everyone to have but have strict policy on what would cause these people to loose their banner and their money .....I'm sure you are not thinking of allowing "KNOWN BADBOYS" back but giving all newcomers a fair chance.

take care,
Sandeep

[deseyered]

I appreciate Al's iron hand. However, I still think the best way is via unsolicited reviews. The cichlid importers on Cichlid-forum go out of their way to make everyone's transactions positive. I haven't had a bad transaction yet. In fact I've found that I do best asking what they'll take for the fish. They always give me a deal and I always have positive things to say about them on the reviews. You'll notice that those breeders/importers who give poor customer service and poor fish get bad reviews. These guys don't stay in business long. They tend to lose business. Those that work their tails off get good reviews and more referrals off that review section than anywhere else. The advertising only points out who they are, it's the reviews that show what kind of businessmen they are...

I do want to add that I've found most of the members like Carol Roberts are willing to help out. In fact a bunch of people jumped in when I made my first post to help me figure out what I should do with my desire to have some Discus. I think that the only thing that might improve the site is if you added more Discus centric articles on a monthly basis. There are many more facets on fish keeping. I've read the articles and I still need more information. I think bumping up the stakes on these articles will help the site. Maybe you could give some of the breeders a little ad time for a great article?

[Spices]

I like the idea of having the connection, deseyered, in networking several forums to the threads where buyers and hobbiests can read off names of bad fish purchases from sellers who are naughty. However, there is a risk at doing such. Litigations can be easily brewed and things can really get imploded like a vacuum. What SimplyDiscus is today should remain an educational tool with loads of information. We do more (in networking as you like), may involve in serious litigious mode-de-operandum.

I stick to fun stuff... Bring chat in if you like, post pictures of buyers' new discus, announce events, have a birthday celebration and gift giving (provided with everyone's cooperation in submitting proof of age)... get to know each other better. That's a network I'd like to see. Crossing my 75-gallon tank over to someone in the state of NM, and receiving a 100-gallon tank from the state of LA... stuff like that is a load of fun. I like that idea. Helping hands..uniting the discus hands.

We all can be vunerable to disputes (occasionally). I can easily mistaken a fish ailment (done so many times already) and accuse the seller, which I don't like to do and I refrain from doing so. That's what this Board is about...I can go online to SD and find my solutions and get my problems resolved almost instantaneously.

Well... I have no more ideas but just that for now.

Good nightie... *A*

[deseyered]

Actually cichlid forum has a disclaimer that covers them legally. Cichlid-Forum.com is very large. They have advertising deals with Tropical Fish Hobbiest and Marineland, Seachem etc.. They aren't in a position to get in trouble. The disclaimer is very specific, the opinions of the individuals do not represent the opinions of Cichlid-forum.com.


And I did say that SimplyDiscus could just encourage people to use the reviews at cichlid-forum.com to report good and bad transactions for different companies. Then.. Simplydiscus doesn't have any responsibility.

[lesley]

Hi Al,

Firstly I think that you must make the decision based on how much it costs to run this site! If you are going to allow anyone in though, please have a disclaimer!!

Ideally, the advertisers here would be reputable sellers that a newcomer can go to and get healthy reasonable stock, not necessarily show winners.

An area to post your concerns, although allowing some disgruntled people in would allow the discerning buyer to sift through and decide for themselves whether or not the poster sounded like a troublemaker and if someone only has a couple of really bad ones against lots of not so good for someone else, I would be heading for the seller with the couple of complaints and sussing out the seller and the situation for myself.

The main thing is that Simply keeps going and helps people.

[crimson cross]

Do keep in mind that any "good" sponsor can also turn "bad" in the future. So it really makes no sense to try and screen the good ones now and have a sponsor in your site that is "bad" later...you will be back to square one.
I would suggest that you let anyone and everyone who wants to be a sponsor have a go at it. Let the collective wisdom of the members decide on their actions and policies. If they are good enough then they will survive but if they are fly-by-night operations, then, hopefully the members here will take them down real fast...
On as side note, your "screening" techniques could also be bias or flawed so how can you be sure that the "screeners" are doing the "right " thing?

Prevention is not the answer, education is...

Just my 2 operculums worth.

[alpine]

I tell you. This is my favorite Forum. Most likely Al's way of doing things have something to do with how things work here. You go to any establishment and the ownership or management is reflected in the experience you have .

Now , I really would like to have a Way or Place so people could voice their experiences with vendors in a way that is safe of liability to the ownership of the forum. Don Lee expressed that all the sponsors in this Forum are sound in character and fairness to customers...well I can tell you that is not so.. and I base that on my experience. I would have liked to share that experience with others that like me are new to the hobby and looking for the right breeder or vendor to stock their tanks with.

Aside from that, I really believe this forum has a taste and character of its own and I would not want to see that terribly compromised.

respectfully,

roberto munoz.

[Spices]

Disclaimers are as good as the claims itself. They may be used in the litigious arena but then again may not. The point is that what is said publicly may not necessarily be brought up on a lawsuit but how it is presented may. Example in mind, the Pet Store owner in Long Island who pressed charges against a forum public writer. Although the case was not proven on behalf of the defendant, the petitioner won the case in a defamation of character.

So, therefore, I agree that while SD is an educational tool and an investment for hobbiest and pros alike, I think it all depends on Al and his feelings on how far does he want to go into developing this forum in a most modern and fair venture.

We can do away with posting words and use only a 5 point star as an indicator of bad business deals. Just an

And, Al, you do deserve a lot of credit for putting up a very well made forum. I too (like Roberto and others) enjoy this forum a lot. Keep up with the fine program.

Angie

[Don_Lee]

I apologize if I was incorrect in stating that all of the breeders/sponsors here are top quality. I honestly would be surprised to learn that there are problems with some, but anything is possible. The issue of a rating system is a tough one, and I am afraid it could really turn into a can of worms if it was not initiated with a very sound structure and plan behind it.

Don

[deseyered]

I think I stated before that SimplyDiscus doesn't have to support the ratings system or be responsible for what is said there. Just go over and submit your favorite breeder/importer (after looking) for the review section. Then put your 2 cents in about your experience with them.

The good cichlid importers even encourage their customers to go over and post a review for them. It really helps when you're purchasing cichlids to check the reviews at cichlid-forum.com. I check out every breeder/importer I use. It makes my choices very easy. You can use your comments to briefly describe the problem. I believe the ratings can be disputed and changed. It's very similar to what you find at aquabid, ebay etc.. and they haven't been sued over it. I don't see the problem.

PS: I just noticed that a few of the sponsors are already there in the reviews section.... You guys are letting that resource go to waste by not using it. Support your favorites!!!

[brewmaster15]

deseyered,

One thing that I won't do is formally endorse another forum... I have done so in the past and was not pleased with the way it turned out. Nothing against your forum... I don't know the criteria your forum uses to prevent people from posting under an alias, when I went there I saw the reviews by Alias and that is a concern to me.. It may not be a concern in a general forum but I have seen too many cases where discus people have posted under an alias to slam others. There is an element to a discus community that is different than a general forum..Its hard to express but I would guess it similar to whats found in a beta forum, pleco forum etc...Its a small world with a long memory.

Support your favorites!!!

Thats also part of the problem. pals promoting pals can skew an image. I have seen it done and done it unintentionally myself.

Thanks for sharing what your site does though. I'll consider what you have said in favor of that system.



Members here are welcome to use whatever forum they want to get their info, but if I do anything in terms of reviews, It will be on Simply or a sister site designed for that purpose. Something I am strongly leaning towards.

Iron handed? I was hoping to have looked more as gentle but firm LOL


Phil,

On as side note, your "screening" techniques could also be bias or flawed so how can you be sure that the "screeners" are doing the "right " thing?

I can't and admit it is biased on my part. I am the screener. I listen as best I can to what the forum tells me about their transactions... and invariable if someone gets sick fish I hear about or if someone gets bad fish..I see the picture...Its not perfect though.

So I believe that YOU must do something to bring the same enthusiasm that you had when you first started back to Simply. I hope the changes you are thinking about will encourage all those that are discus experts to have regular discussions on each of the topic areas with us "non experts" It would be great if you could spearhead that and maybe start the discussion each month on a variety of topics.

I'm trying

-al

[deseyered]

2 things:

I don't own cichlid-forum.com I am a member and was invited to moderate the chatroom. I am a web developer/ programmer that teaches web design, ecommerce etc.. I fully understand the dynamics of a community website. Cichlid-forum.com has impressed me as much as Amazon.com has impressed the entire web development industry.

It saddens me to learn that Discus breeders would have such poor ethics as to do some of the things I've heard about and you've mentioned that they would do. It's pretty sad to also learn from friends that they left the Discus hobby because of these unethical things. It only serves to lessen the number of people willing to own discus other than the pet store visitors who just want a pretty fish that may or may not survive.

I've never seen or heard of anything like that with the Cichlid hobby industry that cichlid-forum.com supports. Yes there are disputes, I occassionally have to play referree to that in the chatroom. And yes, some of the importers/breeders have their differences but they have never used such underhanded tactics against each other. I've never once heard of anyone going out of their way to corrupt the business of another or pad their rating via the reviews.