Artificial raising of young Discus

[CliffsDiscus]

Hey Jason,

The earlist age that the frys can take the bbs is the first day, providing
that the frys are very large(the size of a baby guppy)and you will have
some that still will not take the bbs on the first day. So what would you
do? Split the frys from the bbs eaters and the non bbs eaters? This would
double the work. What I would do is continue feeding the yolk until the
3rd day, I can go up to 3 days without changing the water, then hit them with the BBS, its guarantee the they will take the
BBS is done correctly. Years ago one Discus breeder
was breeding the Gan Discus, these were very large robust, dinner plate size,and thick as 2x4's. Well as it turned out he raise the frys on the first
day of free swimming. This was great, he was the master of artifically raising.
Six months later my friend called and said that the breeder has offer him
8k for one pair of Blue Diamond, I told him sell the pair. As it turn out
the breeder couldn't raise one fry using the same method.

The second question, the cull difference. My thoughs on raising artifically
as soon as the fry start droping off the cone or substrate, you can see
some of the defected frys, no tails, bend spine, and etc., as they become
free swimming on the seventh day you will see sliders, frys swimming oddly,and
frys that will die. Now this is before the artifically method even starts.
My feelings are that when raising by way of parental up bringing the parents
will kill the frys that are deform or not take care of them the results will be all
good frys when bought up by parents. As a breeder that raise frys artifically
I would destroy all of the deform frys at the earliest stage. Now if the breeder is not aware of how to handle the frys this will promote larger
percentage of defects. Defects from mishandling are deformity in eyes, mouth, shave fins and etc.,some of these defects are not noticeable till they
are ready larger.

I hope this kind of answers your questions.

Cliff

[kaceyo]

Hi Cliff,
I always love to see your posts about artificially raising fry because I am trying to get better at it. Could you please explain what you said about being able to go 3 days without changing the water? Is this during the yolk feeding stage? I can see how one could reduce the number of w/c's by keeping all equipment clean and making sure the yolk is not fouling the water too much etc. But I have to change water at least every 4 hours. I mean I would't want to go any longer.
Thanks,

Kacey

[Jason]

Thanks Cliff!

wow Gan Discus havent heard that name in awile, I had some of their great blues and verticle stripes in the early 90's.

I'm trying to learn artificial right now, you've pretty much confirmed my observations.
I have been using the box method, no luck with those pans of water method.

some frys eat bbs, some catch up, some die

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Kacey,
3 days without waterchange? Yes, this is correct, as I have mention start
with every hour waterchange and work up to 12 hours. The three days
method without the waterchanges is to feed the Discus the CORRECT AMOUNT
of yolk that they can consume in 8 hours no more, no less. Every 8 hours add
more yolk, use a 1 1/2 gallon bowl, this method may sound easier but beware
by end of the 2nd day your frys will be living the edge of a
fine line between life and death.
The correct amount of food can only be determine by experience, each
batch may require a different amount of food,(usually Pigeons will consume
more food than LSS). This method is not recommended till the breeder
has already successfully raise frys up to 12 hour without waterchanges.
Artificially methods does not come overnight but with MANY years of pratice,
disapointments and sleepless nights. Thanks to this forum these methods
can be now be shared, there are no secrets just determination and hard work.

Good Luck!
Cliff

[crimson cross]

I agree with Cliff that there is no secret in artificially raising discus..it's all about trial and errors and practice and more practice. The more you do it, the more you will understand the limits of how much you can feed and how much you can get away with water changes. In other words, you have to be the master of the situation with almost total understanding of your water quality and limitations..
In parting I have to say, I am no where near the level of Cliff in AR as there is so much I have yet to understand...hth.
Phil.

[ppv1951]

how do you keep the fry warm during this time they're in the bowls, and at what temp?

pat.

[CliffsDiscus]

how do you keep the fry warm during this time they're in the bowls, and at what temp?

pat.

Hi Pat,
There are couple of ways to keep those babies warm, one way is to warm the
whole room the other way is to float the bowls in the aquariums. The average
temp is probably around 84 to 86.

Cliff

[ppv1951]

thank you cliff. i'm having a little trouble understanding how you can put the yolk on the side of bowl, then tip it to allow the fish access to it..... doesn't the bowl have to come out of the water then? or be heated by the room to begin with? i see your bowls are out of the water.

and, what kind of yolk? simple hard-boiled egg yolk? in the past, people made an infusium of this mixed it with water and just put it in with the fish. does putting it on the side of the bowl work better?

how are you changing water? a turkey baster? and, how much? 100%?

i hope i never have to raise any fry artificially, but this is always good to know.

pat.

[aziyaeian]

would you please follow
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showt...482#post252482

and tell me what can I do about my problem in artifcial raising?

[CliffsDiscus]

would you please follow
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showt...482#post252482

and tell me what can I do about my problem in artifcial raising?

Afshin,
After reading your description there might be a few things to look at:

!. Discus health of the parents may pass diseases on to the frys. May want to
change to another female.
2. The rate of air can be cut in half.
3. Water condition?
4. Methylene Blue poisoning, may want to change to acriflavin. Try not using
any medication when frys are free swimming, see if they are more active,
possible overdose of medication.

Hope this might help you!
Cliff

[aziyaeian]

Thanks a lot
I am waiting for a new batch.
I will follow yor advices and tell you the conclusion.
do you mean I shouldn`t use any Med all the Time during raising them, or only for first day.
as you know they live in water which has MB. I leave them untill they start to swime. then change their water and feed them. there is a little amount of MB in their new water and I add 2cc antibiotic which I have made. do you mean I should use nothing on their dish?

[CliffsDiscus]

Afshin,
Try using some egg powder this has an antifungus ingredient added which would slow the
bacteria growth. You can purchase the egg powder from a baker.

Best of Luck!
Cliff

[Greg Richardson]

Cliff. Just a thought here. If you did a video of the step by step process along with all the things that can go wrong, and how you counter them, you'd not only make some money but a lot of people would go this route more.

If people add up the cost of lost fry do to taking a long time before some parents get their act together some who are in position time wise to do this imo would pay a pretty penny for visual info.

From what I read from you and others on this thread a lot of it is expirmentation.
Lot of experience.

Yet I find a lot of people myself included if it is laid out step by step visually it helps raise the confidence level.

Over time a video camera on a tripod as you go through the steps yourself all you'd be doing is adding commentary.

Make sure though if people can see you talking to yourself through some window and not see the camera a video is in progress sign is visable! LOL!

[CliffsDiscus]

HI Greg,
I had already made slides(predigital) for a lecture that was given probably
around 10 years ago, after the presentation one of the breeders purchase
all of the pictures for a small fortune.
I have also given lectures monthly for 5 years at the California Academy of Science under the
direction of San Francisco Aquarium Society, on all topics concerning raising
and breeding Discus. Annually Discus hatchery visits trip to local breeders were organized, yearly open house to my hatchery were available for
members where they can physically see how the artifically tech is done.
Once a year members interested in raising artifically can sign up for a one
to one lab training and even a annual Christmast dinner. All of this for a $15 membership that went to the San Franciscos Aquarium Society, I received
nothing as a volunteer.
Maybe a Seattle Discus Society can be organized, just a thought.

Cliff

[Greg Richardson]

Hi Cliff. Very cool! I'd love to see you in action. Some day I'd love to do it that way.
Like to make it on down your way some day.