discus not growing?

[leeg]

I have 4 discus in a 40 gallon tank with an angelfish, a pea puffer, a bristlenose pleco and 20 algae shrimp in a planted tank. I got my discus as babies and havnt seen them grow much, I feed them 3 times a day, in the morning they get marine flakes, the afternoon I instruct whoever comes home first to feed my discus some tetra colorbits and for dinner they get a mixture of krill, bloodworms and brineshrimp. I also do 15% water changes every 4-5 days. Am I doing something wrong here?

[leeg]

did a search and looks like i need to feed them beefheart to get them growing. But wouldnt beefheart pollute my water really bad? I have over $100 worth in plants any other solution to beefhearts?

[Ryan]

It could be from a lot of different things. It is possible that they didn't get the proper nutrition, or that they were already runted when you got them, or maybe a lack of water changes.

Young discus often need to be fed quite a bit. I used to give mine six to eight small meals a day and fed them anything they would readily accept -- ONF1 flakes, frozen bloodworms, frozen mysis shrimp, beefheart, Tetra Bits. A varied diet is best and a lot of meaty foods that are high in protein like bloodworms and beefheart seem to really help them grow as youngsters.

With those feedings you have lots of waste, which is why I kept my discus in bare-bottom tanks. They got water changes once a day, usually at least 50%. I can't say whether or not they *need* this many water changes, but I will say that from my own experience my discus didn't grow as quickly and were more likely to be stunted if I slacked off on changing water.

Depending on the source of the fish, sometimes discus are already runted/stunted when you buy them. A lot of LFS discus (though not all of them) are this way. It usually comes from a lack of both things I mentioned above -- good food and lots of fresh, clean water.

Ryan

[american breeder]

It could be from a lot of different things. It is possible that they didn't get the proper nutrition, or that they were already runted when you got them, or maybe a lack of water changes.

Young discus often need to be fed quite a bit. I used to give mine six to eight small meals a day and fed them anything they would readily accept -- ONF1 flakes, frozen bloodworms, frozen mysis shrimp, beefheart, Tetra Bits. A varied diet is best and a lot of meaty foods that are high in protein like bloodworms and beefheart seem to really help them grow as youngsters.

With those feedings you have lots of waste, which is why I kept my discus in bare-bottom tanks. They got water changes once a day, usually at least 50%. I can't say whether or not they *need* this many water changes, but I will say that from my own experience my discus didn't grow as quickly and were more likely to be stunted if I slacked off on changing water.

Depending on the source of the fish, sometimes discus are already runted/stunted when you buy them. A lot of LFS discus (though not all of them) are this way. It usually comes from a lack of both things I mentioned above -- good food and lots of fresh, clean water.

Ryan

yes the water changeing is critical
because as u feed them heavily contamination builds in the water
if u dont change enough even with strong filters\ the fish will gropw slowly

change 100 percent of the water daily is good 100 percent twice a day is best

this will bring about good growth rate
the ammonia is what slows the fish down
AB

[Dave C]

leeg, I read over your old posts and it sounded like you should have 6 Discus, not 4. Did a couple die or do you have multiple tanks? If they died what was the cause or symptoms? Your tank is what I would call overcrowded to begin with, whether it be 4 or 6 medium sized Discus. Especially considering you have substrate, plants & other fish. Combine that with rather infrequent & small water changes and your fish are probably pretty stressed which will affect their eating.

But it's really necessary to understand what size the fish were when you bought them, when you bought them and how big they are now. I believe you got three new ones just over 2 months ago and were commenting that the larger, existing Discus were bullying the new, smaller Discus. That can have a big effect on how much food they eat and their ultimate growth.

I believe in changing as much water as is necessary to keep your tank clean and clear. In my experience it's unnecessary to change 100% a day. Your fish will do no better in a spotless tank that gets 100% daily w/c vs. a spotless tank that gets 100% weekly w/c. There is no magic % or rate. If your tank is clean and your amm/nit are 0, nitrate is low, then you're doing fine and your fish will thrive. That's a harder feat to accomplish in an overcrowded planted tank however so I'm guessing you should change more water, more often. I would also feed more frozen food & less flake. Your tank will stay a lot cleaner with frozen bloodworm then it will with flake food.

[RyanH]

Hi Leeg,

I suspect that the others have already nailed your problem; as poor water quality and the lack of sufficient quantities of protein-rich foods are the primary culprits for slow growth in Discus.

Like Ryan Smith, I've always grown out young Discus in barebottom tanks until I get them to a size that I'm happy with. Then I'll consider putting them in a showtank.

Recently, I've also been finding that young Discus seem to grow better in harder, more mineral-rich water. That may be something to check into further if the advice given already doesn't correct the problem.

hth
-RyanH

[american breeder]

leeg, I read over your old posts and it sounded like you should have 6 Discus, not 4. Did a couple die or do you have multiple tanks? If they died what was the cause or symptoms? Your tank is what I would call overcrowded to begin with, whether it be 4 or 6 medium sized Discus. Especially considering you have substrate, plants & other fish. Combine that with rather infrequent & small water changes and your fish are probably pretty stressed which will affect their eating.

But it's really necessary to understand what size the fish were when you bought them, when you bought them and how big they are now. I believe you got three new ones just over 2 months ago and were commenting that the larger, existing Discus were bullying the new, smaller Discus. That can have a big effect on how much food they eat and their ultimate growth.

I believe in changing as much water as is necessary to keep your tank clean and clear. In my experience it's unnecessary to change 100% a day. Your fish will do no better in a spotless tank that gets 100% daily w/c vs. a spotless tank that gets 100% weekly w/c. There is no magic % or rate. If your tank is clean and your amm/nit are 0, nitrate is low, then you're doing fine and your fish will thrive. That's a harder feat to accomplish in an overcrowded planted tank however so I'm guessing you should change more water, more often. I would also feed more frozen food & less flake. Your tank will stay a lot cleaner with frozen bloodworm then it will with flake food.

Hi Dave

Flake food is simply much higher in protien than frozen blood worms
ever look and see the protien percentage in that stuff
real low..
i can tell u there is a huge difference between maintenance hobby type protocol and production protocol
if i changed the water in my tanks every week instead of twice a day
i would have dead fish everywhere.

[RyanH]

I think that the protein content of frozen bloodworms that is shown on the packaging is a bit misleading.

Moisture accounts for around 80-90% of the total weight of frozen BW's. If you take the water out of the equation you suddenly have a protein content that is >50%.

[Rod]

I agree with Ryan, the water content of frozen bloodworms, indeed any frozen or live food, is what makes them appear to have less protein value. Remove the moisture from the food animals and watch that protein value go up to similar or even higher values than most dry foods.

[Dave C]

Flake food is simply much higher in protien than frozen blood worms
ever look and see the protien percentage in that stuff
real low..

Check out www.hikariusa.com and compare the protein % for frozen bloodworms vs. freeze-dried bloodworms. It's the same underlying food but the protein content in the frozen is 6% vs. 65% in the freeze-dried. Now based on that you could determine that either bloodworms has an underlying protein % of 65% regardless of its form or that the freeze-drying process increases the protein content 10fold. I think if you rethink the flake food statement you'll realize that the posts prior to mine are correct and the protein % is misstated due to the moisture in frozen food. If not for that then almost every food would have much less protein due to moisture and we'd all be eating jerky rather then steak.

i can tell u there is a huge difference between maintenance hobby type protocol and production protocol
if i changed the water in my tanks every week instead of twice a day
i would have dead fish everywhere.

Of course there's a huge difference. But if you can't temper your advice in order to speak to a hobbyist then your advice is of limited value. If you stocked your tanks the way hobbyists do you wouldn't need to change water twice a day... but you don't. And if hobbyists stocked their tanks the way you do they would need to change water twice a day... but they don't. This poster gave you all the details necessary to determine the environment that these fish are under. It doesn't make sense to tell a guy with 4 Discus in a 40g tank that it would be optimal to change water as if he had 40 Discus in the same tank. It would be like me asking a friend of mine, who is a transportation manager at Walmart, for advice on moving my house full of furniture and he suggests I hire 3 teams of doubles drivers with 53 foot reefer trailers, satellite communication in order to ensure that my 15 mile move goes off without a hitch. The advice would not consider my circumstances and would not fit my situation. You said yourself, even when you box up fish for a 10 mile trip you do it as if you were sending them 10,000 miles away. That's the kind of thinking that would advise a hobbyist with a single 40g tank & 4 Discus to change 100% twice a day.

p.s. it's too bad some hobbyist doesn't do an experiment and compare the growth of some Discus fry in two tanks, one with daily w/c and the other with weekly w/c, but both with supreme mechanical filtration. I'd bet that in the first couple of months of growth (the key months for growth for fish) there wouldn't be a difference in growth or health.

[american breeder]

Check out www.hikariusa.com and compare the protein % for frozen bloodworms vs. freeze-dried bloodworms. It's the same underlying food but the protein content in the frozen is 6% vs. 65% in the freeze-dried. Now based on that you could determine that either bloodworms has an underlying protein % of 65% regardless of its form or that the freeze-drying process increases the protein content 10fold. I think if you rethink the flake food statement you'll realize that the posts prior to mine are correct and the protein % is misstated due to the moisture in frozen food. If not for that then almost every food would have much less protein due to moisture and we'd all be eating jerky rather then steak.



Of course there's a huge difference. But if you can't temper your advice in order to speak to a hobbyist then your advice is of limited value. If you stocked your tanks the way hobbyists do you wouldn't need to change water twice a day... but you don't. And if hobbyists stocked their tanks the way you do they would need to change water twice a day... but they don't. This poster gave you all the details necessary to determine the environment that these fish are under. It doesn't make sense to tell a guy with 4 Discus in a 40g tank that it would be optimal to change water as if he had 40 Discus in the same tank. It would be like me asking a friend of mine, who is a transportation manager at Walmart, for advice on moving my house full of furniture and he suggests I hire 3 teams of doubles drivers with 53 foot reefer trailers, satellite communication in order to ensure that my 15 mile move goes off without a hitch. The advice would not consider my circumstances and would not fit my situation. You said yourself, even when you box up fish for a 10 mile trip you do it as if you were sending them 10,000 miles away. That's the kind of thinking that would advise a hobbyist with a single 40g tank & 4 Discus to change 100% twice a day.

p.s. it's too bad some hobbyist doesn't do an experiment and compare the growth of some Discus fry in two tanks, one with daily w/c and the other with weekly w/c, but both with supreme mechanical filtration. I'd bet that in the first couple of months of growth (the key months for growth for fish) there wouldn't be a difference in growth or health.

lol'Dave

what i am attempting to do is give the hobbyist a higher outlook than simply changeing water ever week
i have done many experiements on growth rate etc. My findings are simple
100% water change twice daily for maxium growth
My fish are two inches at about 35 days from hatching. And out the door they go in super sealed styro boxes lids safely taped down. I dont feed my fish frozen foods as its all water ..i use the freezed dried counterparts..u get so much more for your money.

first couple of months are no more key to growth than any other month..in fact i find the hardest growth barrier for them to pass is from two inch to three inch . hobbyists can use advanced discus protocol to insure healthy happy fish. Its simply common sense .

AB

[Dave C]

leeg, there is a world between changing water the way you are and changing 100% twice a day. Don't get frustrated if you don't have the time to maintain your hobby tank(s) as if you were a commercial hatchery. But consider reducing the population of your tank given it's planted. And take a look at this link

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Experiment.htm

and determine for yourself what you can/should do to ensure that your tank(s) are as clean as you can keep them. Cleanliness & quality food will lead to more rapid growth in your fish.

[leeg]

Hi all, thanks for the replies and advice, yes I did have 6 discus before, one of the larger ones died off and I gave the another one to my girlfriend. I guess Ill do more water changes (15%-20% everyday???) and feed more bloodworms and find some beefheart. thanks

[Dave C]

If I were you I'd start by doing your w/c 3x a week... like Mon/Wed/Fri and see how that goes. I'd skip the beefheart if I were you and stick to Hikari frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp & mysis shrimp. It's much cleaner.

[Green Country Discus]

Dave...please......LOL...AB is right on the mark...if you have played the game you must know that Wc (max you can do per day, min 50%) + qualtity food (meaty!) = growth with the right water parameters. Please don't misslead those that are just getting started. Clean looking tank does not = clean water. Solids (crap and left over food) are not the culprits... it's after they turn to liquids that they are nasty!! WC's remove these nasties before they stunt your fish...Sugarcoating on planted tanks with juvies is pure missleading and sure disaster for those that take your advise.
Keep smiling,