HOW TO BREED AND RAISE DISCUS

[David_Hui]

I guess they are about two to one relationship... I had about seven or eight batches which I kept and they were from four pairs. More proven pairs formed last year, but I didn't have enough resources to manage them all.

[Kindredspirit]

I guess they are about two to one relationship... I had about seven or eight batches which I kept and they were from four pairs. More proven pairs formed last year, but I didn't have enough resources to manage them all.

Hey David!

Sooooooo what happens when one doesnt have enough resources to manage them ? I guess they get eatin or just die off? Send them to me! I would love to raise a few babies! ....in a perfect world, yes?


Marie!

[candyl70]

If there isn't room to keep them, then i guess you would cull them, and sell the rest.

[american breeder]

Perhaps Marc is talking from a commerical breeder's point of view. As a business owner, he has to watch his bottom line; therefore, he requires high yield and high return for all his breeders. However, for hobbyists, we could breed and raise frys from tap water but the yield is just lower. The hatch rate for my last batch was about 45%, but I got over 100 frys and did not have any loses. I got my water straight from the tap.

pH 7.5
Conductivity 500 µs
Total Hardness 101.24 ppm

yes of course
one could not be very prosperous if they could only get a 50percent hatch rate

especially in california where your electric bill is out the door
this month 11thousand and change
for one month

hatch rate must be almost 100 percent
everything must be perfect
can not waste anything

very hard

thats why
only a couple of full time breeders in US

even the guys who were hot a few years ago all gone..
quiet

just to hard to do for almost everyone as commercial adventure
investment needed is very large
extreme

i have nine employess full time and 3 part time ones and u cant pay people minimum wage any more
not where i live
where a little dumpy house sells for almost a million bucks

and rent is 2 to 3 thousand a month

raiseing discus in US very costly


oh my my

AB

[candyl70]

11 Thousand?!!

OMG AB!!



I know what you mean about the rent there... my mom and her husband rented a house (by ocean) and it was outrageous!! It was definatley a little dump. That's why they moved to AZ.

[troyclark]

AB, I have been reading this post with much interest. I do not have a whole house water softener. My tap water is approx. 260 TDS. I was wondering if I could put a small media bad with softener pellets in my power filter and soften the water that way ?? Do you think would work. I have two identical 55 gallon tanks with 10 2.5" juvies in each. I am thinking of leaving one as is and trying the softener pellets in the other to see which gets me better results. What do you think I can expect. Thanks for looking.

[kaceyo]

troyclark,
Why not just try peatmoss? Do you age your water? If yes, it should be pretty easy to do and you can buy bales of peat for the price of a handfull of softening pellets. Those bags of resin don't treat enough water to do any good. But you should be OK with the water you have realy, unless your breeding or just want to try it.

Kacey

[american breeder]

I don't hate w/c. I do whatever is required to keep my fish healthy & growing. I was being facetious and I hope everyone reads that advice as such. I suggest that anyone starting out with Discus use their tap water to begin with. I would store it overnight in a large enough container to satisfy whatever w/c % you deem reasonable to start with. Then adjust your w/c frequency & % over time as you note problems. If daily w/c floats your boat then go for it. I also suggest that you start with a temp of 86º, especially for young fish, and especially if you're feeding a lot of food. Start your fish with the basic methods that are successful for the thousands of hobbyists on this & other Discus forums and adjust them over time to suit your circumstances. When advice is given, examine who is giving the advice, what kind of credibility they have, what kind of evidence they provide and what kind of proven success they've had. That was one of the reasons I mentioned that Cary was changing 30% every 2nd day... he's an example of the type of Discus keeper I follow. But everyone should think for themself and not simply follow the advice du jour.

i suggest Dave C u reread Carys water parameters etc..
AB

[raglanroad]

Ron,
I agree that just to keep discus you definatley don't need an RO unit. Just if you want to breed. I like to keep them in soft water because it helps with so many different things. Meds work better, fish are brighter, more comfortable.... anyhow i haven't even attmepted breeding as of yet my fish are still babies... but some day...
Candy

OK, I'll keep the thread rolling...
I think this is important overall, that many things go easier with soft water.
The whole method is one thing, but to take a part of it and apply it haphazard might give haphazard results.
Without the big and constant water changes, and lower pH, things could get dicey.
Cause if I remember, there is no biofilter going here.
The lower pH a good thing then.
The softened water is therefore a good thing.
Proofs not necessary on this occasion ; one thing follows the other. As to water chemistry and if pH is more easily lowered in softer water : that info is avilable.

Whether soft acid water has benefits toward spawning, hatching, or raising ;requires more proofs on the "soft vs. hard water raising" subject than has ever been supplied on this forum before. No solid proofs have ever been put forward so far, only personal observations.
Dave

[Dave C]

i suggest Dave C u reread Carys water parameters etc..
AB

I'm not sure what his parameters are. Maybe you could tell me what they are and why that enables him to do 30% w/c every 2nd day, because everyone should be so lucky. On second thought, maybe you're disputing that he does 30% w/c every 2nd day. No big deal, you're right, he didn't post it on this forum, at least I couldn't find it. But I found the thread that I was referring to & it is relevant to this discussion and could be of help to the members here, so thanks for challenging my unproven statement...

"Like I said I love It! 30% w/c every other day works well on me and My pockit book! and the discus still seem to grow and do very well."

Here's the part I liked, same attitude I have about w/c and no one calls Cary lazy...

"This system is so cool that it gives me less time Changeing water!"

Here's the thread:
http://discusasahobby.com/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0

Now I could be wrong, this thread is back from April, 2005. He could have decided that that wasn't enough water changing and altered his methods since then. Maybe he'll join the discussion and tell us his water parameters & w/c regime.

[David_Hui]

Dave C, I followed your experiment with great interest last year. Did you use water conditioner for your fresh water before wc and what type of filter did you use?

[american breeder]

I'm not sure what his parameters are. Maybe you could tell me what they are and why that enables him to do 30% w/c every 2nd day, because everyone should be so lucky. On second thought, maybe you're disputing that he does 30% w/c every 2nd day. No big deal, you're right, he didn't post it on this forum, at least I couldn't find it. But I found the thread that I was referring to & it is relevant to this discussion and could be of help to the members here, so thanks for challenging my unproven statement...

"Like I said I love It! 30% w/c every other day works well on me and My pockit book! and the discus still seem to grow and do very well."

Here's the part I liked, same attitude I have about w/c and no one calls Cary lazy...

"This system is so cool that it gives me less time Changeing water!"

Here's the thread:
http://discusasahobby.com/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0

Now I could be wrong, this thread is back from April, 2005. He could have decided that that wasn't enough water changing and altered his methods since then. Maybe he'll join the discussion and tell us his water parameters & w/c regime.

all u have to do Dave is go to carys website and read his stuff..it certainly doesnt equate to what u have been telling us and since cary is your discus guru,,u better get on the ball,just funnin with ya Dave C

[raglanroad]

In the aquarium, the pollutants rise till they reach a certain level , an equilibrium, and then the "graph" evens out. It doesn't make a big difference whether you change 30% every 2 days, or 15 % per day, or 45% every 3 days, the average amount of pollutants is the same over time.
What differs with WC regimes is the total pollutants level and the slope at which they rise to their equilibrium point.
Obviously more and bigger WC is going to be approaching toward the desired state whereas fewer and less is not going to do as well.
Feeding and body load per gal. also affects the total pollutant level long term as well as the rate at which pollutants rise.

[ronrca]

Marc, I can see why soft water is benefical from a commerical pov and appreciate your effort in explaining it. You have to make ends meet and I understand that.

The hobbyiest on the other hand is in a different situation. Ideally, it would be great if everyones tap water were soft unfortunatly, my tap is not. The lfs dont even take discus because they dont have ro. I tell them I raise them in my tap water and they now are willing to try them. Imo, many beginners with discus or some that only have a few tanks, its a big expense to install RO just to keep discus in a tank or two. If we tell them that RO is necessary to keep discus, they will keep guppies instead and the market doesnt grow. Id rather see the market grow for discus 1 successful beginner at a time by educating them that stable water parameters are the key not some biotope parameters that 100s of generation ago they originally came from so what they do then is add chemicals to lower ph because its cheaper than buying RO. In my area of the world, there are very few ppl that have discus just for this reason.

I have been successful in keeping discus in hard water however if this hard water has a negative phsyical effect on my discus, I want to change that.

[ronrca]

OK, I'll keep the thread rolling...
I think this is important overall, that many things go easier with soft water.
The whole method is one thing, but to take a part of it and apply it haphazard might give haphazard results.
Without the big and constant water changes, and lower pH, things could get dicey.
Cause if I remember, there is no biofilter going here.
The lower pH a good thing then.
The softened water is therefore a good thing.
Proofs not necessary on this occasion ; one thing follows the other. As to water chemistry and if pH is more easily lowered in softer water : that info is avilable.

Whether soft acid water has benefits toward spawning, hatching, or raising ;requires more proofs on the "soft vs. hard water raising" subject than has ever been supplied on this forum before. No solid proofs have ever been put forward so far, only personal observations.
Dave

Dave, I understand the water chemistry aspect of low ph. My concern is how discus fair in hard water. There is a going on from a phsyical aspect via osmosis, blood, metabolism, etc which can be seen from parameter swings and different water parameters between tanks and wc's, etc. However, if discus are already raised in and kept in stable conditions in hard water, how does it affect the discus on the long term?

In the aquarium, the pollutants rise till they reach a certain level , an equilibrium, and then the "graph" evens out. It doesn't make a big difference whether you change 30% every 2 days, or 15 % per day, or 45% every 3 days, the average amount of pollutants is the same over time.
What differs with WC regimes is the total pollutants level and the slope at which they rise to their equilibrium point.
Obviously more and bigger WC is going to be approaching toward the desired state whereas fewer and less is not going to do as well.
Feeding and body load per gal. also affects the total pollutant level long term as well as the rate at which pollutants rise.

These pollutants, what are they btw?