Discus market concerns

[Albanets]

As I have read some posts and looked at the aquabid and ebay,
I have come to a particular conclusion that discus market is dead already or getting to it. The only successful sellers are those who sell fry/juveniles for ridiculously low prices.
What are the reasons?

Seller's concerns:
1. Energy, food, space prices in the USA are much higher than those in Asia.
Therefore, discus commands higher prices. Often, breeder breaks even or has a very little profit.

2. Cheap imports from Asia are unreliable since exporters often tend to send first package good and rest worse and worse, to the point of sending sick fish which wipes out hatcheries and puts many importers out of business.

3. Discus are hard to mate and difficult to raise fry. (Is it more difficult than cheap angels??)

Buyer's concerns:

4. Biggest of all is the concern that discus are very-very-very expensive and hard to keep fish. Combined, these factors drive zillions of fish keepers out of even considering discus. Vast majority of people will skip on discus and buy something else.

5. Care time for discus is ridiculous. Most fishkeepers tend to WC once or twice a week. If fish needs more, they are stuck. Everyday wcs??? Thanks, I'll skip on that one.
What if I wanna go to a vacation? What I do with my discus? they will die!!! And they are expensive!
__________________________________________________ ________

So this post is about solutions on how to revive discus hobby. I am not saying make discus cheap and hardy like feeder guppy, but at least make it considerable.

So what can make discus more attractive to buyers? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

1. PRICE. What can be done to lower the price? I say, cut on those WCs and feed pellets. Jack Watley feeds his discus with dry food.

2. HARDINESS. Do you really think that everyday WCs are absolutely necessary for ADULT discus? I doubt it very much.
3. AVAILABILITY. I want discus today, I go to LFS, I do not see one, I buy something else. End of story, no space.
More Importers should establish more contacts with more good asian breeders. Like gulfcoastdiscus and goldmauntain discus.

[Timbo]

great thread topic!

it would be interesting to have breeders breed with hardiness in mind versus looks. i know some of that happens anyway as most breeders will use their fastest-to-mature and most healthy to be breeding stock and usually that equates (somewhat) to hardiness.

i would think one could use fish that have survived some neglect/dirty water/pathogen exposure without showing too many adverse effects and keep breeding for that trait

however...i'm fairly certain this will not happen in a market economy as they would not sell as well as the ones bred for appearance/shape..it would take a dedicated hobbyist or a determinded effort by breeders with a long-term view to breed for hardiness, as cash-flow talks when people are trying to make a living with fish.

in time however, maybe would be possible to raise tougher (but also beautiful) discus, thus expanding the hobby to those that are not currently able to commit to the time it takes to raise discus.

interesting

[ShinShin]

Discus aren't for everyone, and it doesn't matter how much anyone tries to post on these forums that discus do not require certain water requirements, food, maintainance, etc., this will not change.

Discus keepers have made a commitment to raising discus for the sake of raising discus. It is not up to the discus to conform to the requirements its owner wants provide, but up to the owner to give the discus the requirements it needs.

One need only follow the forum threads here and elsewhere at all the failed attempts of raising and breeding discus. Read the disease sections. Same problems. Mostly stress related diseases caused by less than ideal conditions, whether it be food, water, temp., etc.

If discus were easy, they'd be cheap. They're not, so....

Mat

[RyanH]

I wrote up a market analysis on Discus for a small business management course that I'm taking. Basically what I found is that it's pretty much impossible for a person to turn a profit in this country from breeding, importing, or even by doing both.

Expenses such as heat, water, shipping costs, as well as food and equipment costs eat away any potential for profits. Combined with losses from disease and you have pretty much driven the final nail into the coffin.

I'm not saying that it can't be done but it's damn difficult. I wouldn't even attempt it unless I had time and money to burn.

One of these days I'll post the data that I collected on the subject. It was disturbing.

I'm still waiting to get my grade back.

-Ryan

[Alight]

Ryan is correct on all counts. A seat of the pants analysis can see about the same thing.

As to what would make discus more popular in this country, how about a cheap, reliable and efficient automatic water changer? A drip system might be the best, because then the heating problem and even possible O2, CO2 problems might be moot. Only the chloramine thing to worry about.

However, any "take it out of the box" shove it in the tank thing could jump start the hobby here. If it could be priced at under $100, (a small one for $50) it might do the trick.

Discus will eat and thrive on pellet food (I raised a bunch and bred them years ago on only Tetra color bits), and with a reasonable stocking level, twice a week water changes can be adequate. If only it were automated.

As to going on vacation, just don't feed them, or don't feed them much, and water changes don't have to be made. I do this all the time with absolutely no ill effects. Nitrates don't go high if you don't feed them. They will regain any weight lost while you are gone (up to 2 weeks) within a few days.

[Cosmo]

Ryan,

It would be fascinating to see that study Intuitively, it would seem difficult to argue just knowing what I spend on upkeep of my small little brood..

When I bought my dogs, each of the breeders told me they were lucky to break even.. they were in it for love of the breed. All three of the breeders I bought from were way out in the sticks... hours drives away from where I lived, and all lived very modestly... had to be love ..

That being said, and along the lines that ShinShin was talking...

Porsches are much more expensive and time consuming to buy/maintain than are Chevy's... Harley's are more expensive and maintenance intensive than are Honda's.... but they both survive and they both command high prices because the people that buy them are willing to accept that.... I think that applies to all commodities/consumables... or livestock Arabian horses comes to mind...

Discus are not hard to keep, but you don't simply plop them into a pretty tank to show them off and forget about them either. If you're not into this hobby due to love of the fish... you're likely to end up very unhappy and frustrated ...

Jim

[Cosmo]

On another note

In "real dollar" terms, Discus in the U.S. have gone down considerably in price. 25 years ago or so, $100 LFS Discus were more the rule than the exception.. don't know the exact numbers, but that probably translates to 2 or 300 (more?) USD in todays economy... considerably more than they cost now

Good News

Jim

[imatrout]

I think forums like this hurt the situation also. The difficuly with discus lies in breeding them and successfully raising a high yield of fry to a sellable stage.

Keeping discus (healthy and happy) on the other hand is not that big of a deal. When people have initial interest in this beautiful fish, they come in these forums and hear all the breeder talk and it scares the heck out of them and does not sound like fun. I mean, who wants to micro manage a bare bottom tank with daily water changes of re-constituted R/O and special diets required feeding evey few hours? Not, fun and not pretty. IMO there's no better way to ruin the beauty of a fish and create a sad environment for them than to put them in a bare bottom tank.

So, breeders do this because that's what they like to do. What will get discus to be more popular is discussion aimed at the pet keeper. I keep beautiful and healthy discus in a heavily planted tank doing WC's once a week with tap water. Period. I take simple precautions like making sure I have lots of biological filtration and I feed them well, but slowly so food does not waste. Other than that it's pretty simple. You can see my tank and fish in the link below. Oh. notice the fish feeder on top of the tank.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=47825

I have also found that discus are VERY resilient fish. Precise temperature or PH adjustments are NOT necessary. On purpose, I inject 50+ ppm of CO2 into that tank and 20 ppm of Nitrate and 4 ppm of PO4 and everybody is happy!

So if you want more people to be "into discus", stop making it a science and make it a hobby. There's nothing wrong with picking up a couple of quarter sized fish at the LFS that aren't Super Ullta Spiffy German A+++ Sure to Win The Show and Spawn You Into Retirement fish, putting them in a community tank and feeding them flake. They are still pretty, and as we all know, the most personable fish to be kept.

I'd rather (and I think the fish would rather) have 18-24 months in a beautiful happy community environment than 4 productive years in a bare bottom tank crankin out fry on a orange cone! Good grief!

[White Worm]

Well said.
I think auqabid is being affected by the time of year. Its cold and most people dont want to risk the delivery. Especially with the so-so companies out there like DHL. It will pick up more when it gets warmer I think. You will most times get better deal here than on aquabid anyway. Once you breed quality fish and you establish a good reputation, you wont have too much problem selling. Although, watch the market and see what people are looking for and breed them. If you have every day strains, you will have to sell them for less price.

[candyl70]

Have to agree with Mat on this one. If it's too hard, and too time consuming, then try your hand at another less demanding cichlid.

[alpine]

imatrout, enjoyed your post

roberto.

[snooze]

Here are some seller costs I thought of (I’m sure I missed a lot) ... Food, medicine, water conditioners, ph meter, conductivity meter, water testing kits, discus books, electricity, water, heating costs for room and replacement water(natural gas, wood or oil), aquariums, heaters, filters, sponges, air lines, plumbing fixtures, pvc pipes, pumps or air blower, shipping supplies(rubber bands, bags, oxygen, heatpacks, tape, styrofoam boxes, cardboard boxes), water storage tanks, advertising costs(magazines, website, banner ads, free fish giveaway promotions, search engine placement fees, local newspaper ad, ebay and paypal fees(selling on ebay is expensive)), long distance phone bills, bank transfer fees for importers, website development and associated costs of website, backup power generator, the fish themselves(a significant cost if the fish you import die or are sick or are poor quality and can’t be resold, also the cost of home grown culls), import license, shipping freight, customs fees, wildlife inspection fees, broker fees, traveling to fish shows (ACA, Aquarama, etc) or to exporter fish farms, fish stands or racks.

Perhaps an R.O. machine, U.V. sterilizers, hatching cones, baby brine shrimp(expensive), lights for tanks, lids for tanks, nets, freezer for food. Insulation and dehumidifier for fish room, wet/dry vacuum for spills, digital camera, computer, printer, postage, office supplies, business cards, gasoline costs going to airport, vehicle to transport fish, insurance for that vehicle. God forbid if you have to pay monthly rent for a warehouse to house your fish.

And of course, one of the biggest costs is your time(most never calculate that). You have to remember to pay yourself. How much is your time worth? The time of answering emails, reading and posting on message boards, packing fish for shipment, going to the airport, updating website, changing water, feeding fish, cleaning tanks, doing accounting, making beef heart, getting supplies, talking on the phone to customers, time talking to customers in person, etc...

The main problem is the lack of market. The market is very limited. Most pet shops don’t want discus because they cannot keep them alive(they keep them in bad water conditions and don’t feed or change water, they don’t know how to treat the discus when they get sick) and because they don’t sell well(they are more expensive and harder to keep than most other fish... plus most advanced discus keepers tend not to buy discus from pet shops). So if pet shops don’t want your fish, what do you do with them? The longer you hold onto your fish(inventory), the more they cost you(inventory that eats and needs care!). Also mail order sales are much, much harder now with shipping costs going up, up, and up.

So that’s what sellers are up against... They have falling prices for their product with the higher costs of importing or breeding fish, the major threat of disease(that can totally wipe them out) and the high costs of maintaining their fish until they are sold. Plus there is still a glut of competition currently selling fish. Many are just dumping them on the market. You can see the desperation in some of the ads from sellers at Aquabid. Lots of supply with little demand. So the risk-reward isn’t there. That’s why you constantly see so many tanks for sale, why so many importers are getting out of the business. Nobody likes to work for nothing and most can’t keep on losing money forever(when you run a business, it’s all about the money).

Here’s a link on information on how to start a greenhouse business. It’s amazing how much stuff you have to consider before starting a simple business. Growing and selling plants are similar to the fish business.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/busmgmt/bus...lori_guide.htm

I think most people that get into the fish business probably never sit down and develop a real business plan. And so most fail within a year or two, and probably lose quite a lot of money. The only person I remember that ever mentioned doing a business plan on selling fish was OdwyerPW. I believe he wanted to open a fish store selling discus and other fish. He made a plan and decided, after looking at all the numbers, that it just wasn’t feasible.

[Ryan]

Imatrout, there are exceptions to the rule. There are people here who have tried going your route and failed, and they wonder why. I highly doubt this forum has anything to do with the discus market in this country, considering that most people who purchase discus locally have never even heard of Simply. The bare bottom vs. planted tank debate has been beaten to death. What works for you might not work for others. Some succeed, some fail.

I think a lot of the problem is that newbies are buying overpriced, sickly fish without doing research first. I also think there are too many sellers claiming to have grade A fish, and then delivering bad stock. I've seen this personally and had bad fish sent to me from sellers who were supposedly reputable. Then you do everything right, either by the old books (low pH, RO water, planted tanks, etc.) or the suggestions on this forum (water changes, bare bottom) and fail miserably. I've gone both routes and failed at both.

Until there is a way to educate people about what HEALTHY discus are, and help them make informed purchasing decisions, I don't think the market in this country will get any better. If there's not a demand for higher quality stock, people will continue selling crap... and if people continue selling crap, unsuspecting hobbyists will buy it to try their hand at discus, then fail and give up on them.

I think if you start with healthy stock either route can be successful (although I think planted tanks can be just as much work as bare bottom tanks), but good luck finding that as a casual hobbyist at most LFS or Aquabid sellers (you know the ones I mean).

Ryan

[April]

theres no pet market that makes big loot. you have to do it for the love not the dollar signs in your eyes. if you are..forget it. ive done rabbits..and dogs.. and had discus for 10 years. never saw dollar signs in my eyes. anyone thinking they are gonna are dreaming in colour. even with dogs..you can say wow..1000 a pup..at 4 pups..thats 4 k. then..a vet bill..or emergency caesarian..or some other unsuspecting problem and there it all goes.
only kind of rabbit that makes sense is if you have a trio or rabbits in your backyard for raising and eating. then..worth it..you can raise a family on them..
so..if your trying to get rich..go gold panning or somethin. lol.
but if you have some bread and butter fish etc to help support your discus hatchery..or supplies..maybe. or..another line to pay for the rent and hydro etc.
face it . its a richmans hobby. its the mercedes of fish. if you cant afford it..swordtails are cheaper..

[April]

most of the long time discus hobbyists have gone at different levels at different times in their life accordig to whats goin on in their life. but the fact is..most go back to it even if they take a hiatus. why? its love at first sight..and a fascination..and a challenge..maybe its the personality of the persons. weve had discussions about this before also. mostly type a types..or people who dont sleep..etc..
its not for everyone..discus are still quite an elite type fish. i think its just levelled off a bit..and dont think thats a bad thing....