Discus market concerns

[wolfbane]

Well spoken April! At our grooming shop, we were always dealing with people who thought they could make money breeding their dogs. Reality is an eye opener.

Been there with rabbits too, kept my family fed, sold a few fryers, let the kids go to 4H with them.

My discus are entertaining, beautiful, and time consuming. They will never make me any money, but I don't expect that. I got into them for their wonderful form, their regal beauty.

Oh yeah, we tried to raise Guinea pigs for a small profit, But then it broke my heart to let them go. I'm just not a good profiteer.

[Albanets]

excellent comments, friends. Enjoyed reading them.

[Albanets]

I would say

healthy discus = hardy fish
compromized (with a questionable past lol) discus = not-so-hardy fish
Both are pricey. One of them eventually dies.
These are two totally different stories...

[jim_shedden]

good thread
I guess ya just gotta love them
Jim

[Albanets]

You are right. It all comes down to it. Gotta love

[Ryan]

I think that's any kind of hobby though, especially the ones involving pets. Reef tanks are a great example. They're beautiful, but they're expensive and require lots of work. All of the stores around here have horrible looking marine stock. So if I were to start a reef tank, I'd be in the same boat that I'm in with discus. I'd have to do research and find a reputable dealer of saltwater fish, pay a pretty penny for them, etc.

When you really look at it closely, this can be said of any fish that we all keep. You've got LFS guppies, then you have breeders of show guppies. LFS bettas vs. bettas from a breeder. Platies and swordtails from Petsmart, or the fancy varieties that you can get on Aquabid. I think the LFS side of the market, unless you have an exceptional LFS, is in pretty sad shape as a whole. I have one shop in my area that has decent fish... but I refuse to buy anything from all the rest.

There are many casual fish hobbyists who just want some pretty fish to look at, but they know nothing about quarantine, disease, or what makes a fish healthy vs. sickly. So they go to the LFS, the teenager working there tells them what they want to hear, they bring them home... and they've got a 50/50 chance. I talk to a lot of family members who say, "Oh yeah, we have a tank... but our fish died and we need to get new ones." To them, this is a normal occurance and they think it's just supposed to happen that way.

I think LFS discus have just as much of a chance at survival as most of the other fish you can buy from the same store. But there are two different markets -- the broader, less desirable "general" market where casual hobbyists are just buying some pretty fish without much experience or knowledge on the subject... and the smaller, more specific (and expensive, usually) market where the hardcore experienced "in-the-know" hobbyists shop.

If you love your fish and you really want to do things the right way, you choose the latter. Most of us started out doing the LFS thing and we later realized that there were better, healthier fish to be had elsewhere. That's why a lot of us here now order from breeders or importers. So you could really say the love of this hobby is what got us all here in the first place. If you were only mildly interested in discus, chances are you wouldn't be on this site reading about them The casual hobbyists who tried their hand at discus and failed, well, they probably went on to African cichlids or something just as colorful but requiring less work.

So I don't think the fish market in general is going to get any better, because most of the aquarium owners out there fall into that "casual hobbyist" category and if something doesn't work for them, they just move onto something else. If everyone boycotted the stores in their area and demanded better quality, then maybe they would either go out of business or attempt to deliver nice fish... but it just won't happen. Most aquarium owners aren't that devoted to the hobby. Face it, guys... we're all in too deep and people probably think we're crazy lol

Ryan

[fishfarm]

Interesting thread, I guess I need to my chime in. I've been around a long time, Did mostly African for years and did make a profit. I've always had some discus around, but did not start importing until 2001. I did Asian fish for 3-4 years and had too many problems with diseases and crappy fish and switched to wilds, Shipping cost are a lot less and you get mostly adult fish that don't die on you. Plus after me, Al and Alberto, there's not anyone else selling wilds, so the market is not flooded. I have no trouble selling my fish, I also import just about any cichlid that is listed when I get in shipments and they are pretty easy to sell too, Apistos and wild angels are in demand.
If you look at Aquabid you see lots of auctions with no bids, which is deceiving, I sell more fish off auction from people who see them and e-mail me. Over head sux, I just had to put a new heater in my hatchery and it cost me $3500. My business owns my truck, pays for the computer, phone line, fax, internet service, gas for the truck, insurance, cell phone, ect and on paper I still manage to turn a small profit each year and get to keep all the fish I want, so selling fish keeps me in the hobby and off the streets. I do not pay myself for my time. There are also side benefits, I go on collecting trips (business expense!), do 5-6 talks a year for fish clubs and conventions(and get air miles for them), meet alot of cool people and enjoy it all. The wife and I are going to Bermuda for 4 days in late February for a one hour talk on fish. How cool is that! It's all what you want to get out of it. Your not going to get rich with fish, But you can break even or even make a little money if you do it right. I have 600 tanks and could not live off the income from them, but they do pay for themselves and I really enjoy working with the fish and the people I meet. So I guess it's what do you want out of the hobby.

[korbi_doc]

Ryan,

It would be fascinating to see that study Intuitively, it would seem difficult to argue just knowing what I spend on upkeep of my small little brood..

When I bought my dogs, each of the breeders told me they were lucky to break even.. they were in it for love of the breed. All three of the breeders I bought from were way out in the sticks... hours drives away from where I lived, and all lived very modestly... had to be love ..

That being said, and along the lines that ShinShin was talking...

Porsches are much more expensive and time consuming to buy/maintain than are Chevy's... Harley's are more expensive and maintenance intensive than are Honda's.... but they both survive and they both command high prices because the people that buy them are willing to accept that.... I think that applies to all commodities/consumables... or livestock Arabian horses comes to mind...

Discus are not hard to keep, but you don't simply plop them into a pretty tank to show them off and forget about them either. If you're not into this hobby due to love of the fish... you're likely to end up very unhappy and frustrated ...

Jim

Boy, this is quite an enlightening thread!! Lotsa truths here that most ppl do not want to accept!! I've seen this same thing happen in my veterinary practice to breeders & wannbe breeders, dogs & cats... nowadays purebred dogs command a big price, but there is still never enough $$ to support a family unless done on a large scale & then it better be treated as a "true business" with all the pitfalls (overhead,inventory, insurance, taxes) to be successful...What comes in better outway what goes out; it may just be easier to hold down a real job that pays enough for one to carry on a hobby!!
& Jim, what do you know 'bout Arabian horses? any personal experience?? Well, I have...& you are so right!! Right there's a big losing proposition, unless your in a high enough money bracket & can afford to "lose" money & use it as tax deduction.....Back in the '70s, horses were a huge tax money break, but the market fell thru in the '80s when the gov't started clamping down, & now horses are a huge "money pit"!!!!!!!!!!!!Wouldn't want to even guess at what it's cost me over the yrs.... have a couple I need to sell & can't even do that. By the time you pay a stud fee, raise one, keep it & feed it for 3-4 yrs, train or have it trained, there's no way to be able to sell one & make any money... you'd consider yourself lucky to break even, & that doesn't happen very often. The only ppl making it these days have lotsa money to back them, have trainers to do the work, & enough money to advertise & travel all over to show them & "entertain" prospective buyers...lol.. believe me when I say, I did it cuz I love the Arabian horse & enjoyed raising them, showing them & now I'm down to hopefully riding'm & driving'm in Tn..
I also will hopefully have a few tanks of discus, again cuz I love'm, but not as a business, just for the fun of it....lol, Dottie

[tdr1919]

I need to chime in on this one, I believe Discus keeping is at different levels
and I also agree that placing these beautiful fish in a BB tank is a waste.
I also agree that many people go to these forums and get scared when they read about this "intensive care". IMO, Discus can be kept healthy and live a long life with a good bio filter weekly or even bi-monthly partial water changes.Will flourish on good quality dry food. Of course, you need good quality fish to start out with. Breeding and high fish counts make things differnt. As an example, my kids got my runts, they are in a 29 gal with a crumby hang on filter, get only flake, they live with guppies, goldfish sharks and a gourami, rarely get a water change. I use the tank as a "benchmark" for my water test kit, and the amonia & nitrates are through the roof! One discus has been in this tank for over a year the other about 6 months.
Tom R.

[tpl*co]

Great thread! I need to put my two cents in too. The big gripe I have is the sale of obviously hormoned fish at LFS which will never live to their full potential. Fish stores sell them since they are "pretty" from the get go and sell quickly. People don't want to wait the year or so for the non-hormoned fish to show their potential they want to know what it looks like now. So they bring this very juiced up fish home, it gets sick, dies, and discus as a whole gets a bad rap. I guess that's just marketing, but it doesn't do the hobby or the reputation of discus any good.

From the good people on this board I've learned a lot about the fish and I am more selective on what to look for and who to get my fish from .

Tina

[KIWI13]

I am very impressed by this thread, this is some of the best discussion I have seen on here in a long time..

I can't comment on the American market cause I don't live there. The New Zealand market is kinda dead... not many imports get in and so the strains are limited...

The french market is bad too... overpriced crap, unless you know some good breeders and there are some very good breeders who prefer to sell through clubs than douse the LFS who do not deserve good fish...

The LFS pay charges and hence they wanna buy discus for even less these days and with the increasing water rates in europe (yikes) this really puts a strain on the breeder.. Thats why the cut out the middle man and try and sell directly to clubs..

I never thought you could make a fortune of selling fish.. It is a hobby really and its not one that will help you buy a brand spanking new hummer.. Medicine and Law are good career choices in that respect.. LOL

I don't think its a question of BB tanks or Planted tanks or Water changes.. its a simple question of world economy and rising prices....

Plus culturally people have less time these days to take on hobbies.. We work too much. I have done good 50 to 60 hour weeks as an architect and try fitting water changes in there.. LOL

Great topic guys and imatrout, I found your post very amusing.. great piece of work..


This thread should be a sticky cause it would be great to see peoples reaction to the subject over a period of time.. this might enlighten us even further....

Jason

[JeffreyRichard]

I'll add my $.015 (discounted ...)

I've been keeping and breeding Discus for over 12 years ... in the early and mid '90's, there wasn't a lot of successful breeding going on. Today, one only has to peruse this forum to find LOTs of success keeping and breeding ... mostly at an individual/hobbyiest level. My conclusions ...

1) There is much more information available to keepers ... forums, internet articles, magazines, books
2) Discus have been "domesticated" to the point where many types (particularly Pigeon Blood) are more adaptable (=keepable) than the discus of the pre-90's
3) Many basement/hobbyiest breeders are supplying the market

Discus aren't nearly the mystery they were 15-20 years ago ... this is a VERY good thing IMO.

I would also like to concur with the sentiments of Imatrout and others who voiced concern over some of the advice given newbies and inexperienced discus keepers in forums ... some (not ALL, not MOST) information is expressed in a way that does in fact scare people away from keeping these fish. There are LOTs of ways to successfully keep discus ... one can dedicate there time and efforts and get great results ... one can also have a more casual approach with success. Yes, the chances of success increase with the amount of dilligence & work spent on discus, but we should not scare people away with some of the discus-snobbery being passed off as advice (i.e, if you can NOT do at least one water change every day then you are not worthy ...).

Jeff

[ShinShin]

While I agree there is more info available to the discus hobbyists today than there was 10 years ago, it is also true that there is more bad info available today as well.

By 1991 there was all the info available in just three books that any hobbyists needs to know about being successful with discus keeping and breeding.


The Handbook of Discus, Wattley 1985
Discus for the Perfectionist, Wattley 1991
Discus Health, Untergasser 1991

These three books could also be supplimented with a book on water chemistry which was also easily available at that time.

Anyone with some degree of fish husbandry skills and experience could read these three books, set up their tanks in accordance to the info provided, purchase discus and be successful in rearing and breeding these fish. Deviate and pay the price. This price is being paid daily, proven by the disease threads on the forum pages.

Mat

[JeffreyRichard]

By 1991 there was all the info available in just three books that any hobbyists needs to know about being successful with discus keeping and breeding.


The Handbook of Discus, Wattley 1985
Discus for the Perfectionist, Wattley 1991
Discus Health, Untergasser 1991

Mat

Clearly you are a Wattley disciple. Wattley was an extremely successful pioneer in this hobby ... however, I really don't like his books from an keeping perspective ... it's too narrow in how to keep and breed the fish. Also IMO the material isn't described clearly. The best part of his books are the outstanding photos IMO

Anyone with some degree of fish husbandry skills and experience could read these three books, set up their tanks in accordance to the info provided, purchase discus and be successful in rearing and breeding these fish.

True, but there are better books out thereIMO ... Jim Quarles book is the best IMO ... and trust me, endorsing JQ is not something I enjoy doing ...

Deviate and pay the price. This price is being paid daily, proven by the disease threads on the forum pages.

Mat

You are making my point! Anyone who is "absolute" "don't deviate" "there is only one way" is doing a disservice to the hobby. I don't do it Wattleys way, and I'm successful. There are plenty of people who don't do it Wattleys way and are successful. There are plenty who do it his way and are not successful.

All I ask is you present you advice from a more open point of view ... you need to acknowledge other methods in endorsing your method.

[ShinShin]

Discus for the Perfectionist is a sampling of renowned discus breeders from around the world and how they breed discus. Topics include food, water, lighting, filtration, tanks, disease, and breeding are all covered, as well as other issues. Too narrow? The men who supply answers to his questions are professional breeders. They've kept discus for more than 10 minutes.

I will not argue the point that there other great books available. I was making a point by using just those three. Jim Quarles "Success with Discus" is an outstanding book, as is his first "Discus as a Hobby", which I often recommend to begining hobbyists. Why would you not endorse JQ? But, if you notice, Jim had very set ways to breed discus. Best kept at a pH of 5.8. Sound familiar? This book was not available in 1991.

I've never said there is only one way. We all know there has to be at least two ways. So, I didn't make your point. I've made mine. Discus kept in less than ideal conditions will be less than ideal discus. That's all I am saying. Deviate too far from ideal, and you'll have sick discus.

I have most of the better discus books available. They all follow pretty much the same philosophy within a narrow range of parameters.

Mat