Discus Plague

[lhforbes12]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started
I believe I have a case of Discus Plague.




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)
Turned very dark, excess mucous, light sensitive, eating sparingly, huddled in a dark corner, floating near surface or sitting on bottom, sometimes resting at an angle.


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

I haven't tried anything yet, but prior to these symptoms I dosed twice with Jungle Labs Parasite Cure for what I thought was hex ( two fish had white stringy feces ).
I have added Kosher salt at 3 tablespoons per 55 gallon tank.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
2 tanks, both 55 galllon BB.
Tank 1- Pair, they were spawning
Tank 2- 8 size from 2.5" SL-4"SL (3 of them were just purchased and are the smallest and probablle source of this)

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
BB, 50 wc daily- straight from tap

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 86F

- ph 7.6

- ammonia reading 0 mg/l

- nitrite reading 0 mg/l

- nitrate reading 0 mg/l

- well water ____

- municipal water 7.6, 150 mg/l TDS, KH 5.5

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
3

I believe this is Discus Plgue. When I tried the page for this on this site I get a Page Not Found. Also there is way too much conflicting information on the Net. At this point I am using a diatom filter on the Pair's tank, but since I only have one diatom filter and they are all infected anyway, I'm thinking of putting them all in the same tank with the diaatom filter. While I know the diatom filter wont help with them I am hoping it will help prevent secondary infections. I do have an RO/DI filter and am wondering if using it willl help?

Thank for any help,
Larry

[pcsb23]

Well it does sound as though your discus have some possible disease. In my experience plague is very, very rare and it os often used to describe an illness that doesn't respond to the normal treatment.

This is affecting 2 tanks? both are 55's?

Did you quarantine your 3 new fish before adding them?? Your post reads as though you put them straight in.

When you do a water change do you use a water conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramine? Also do you mix it with warmer water or put it in cold?

Sorry for all the extra questions but it will help with treatment and recommendations.

[lhforbes12]

Well it does sound as though your discus have some possible disease. In my experience plague is very, very rare and it os often used to describe an illness that doesn't respond to the normal treatment.

This is affecting 2 tanks? both are 55's?

Did you quarantine your 3 new fish before adding them?? Your post reads as though you put them straight in.

When you do a water change do you use a water conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramine? Also do you mix it with warmer water or put it in cold?

Sorry for all the extra questions but it will help with treatment and recommendations.

The 3 fish were put into a BB 55 gallon with 6 others that were also recently bought, but from a different source. The water put into the tank during a wc is at the same temp as the tank and I do use a water conditioner. And yes, 2 tanks, both 55's

[ShinShin]

First thing to learn from this experience is when you quarantine fish, do not mix batches of fish. Quarantine seperately. This goes also to when you buy fish from the same place at different times unless you know for CERTAIN that the fish were bred in the same tanks and not imported fish.

It is good the fish are eating. They do eat if it is the plague. To stop any secondary infections, add malachite green and formalin. Drop temp to 82F. Lower your pH by 0.5 daily until you reach 4.0pH. Keep it at 4.0 and your discus ought to recover (if it is the plague) in about 3 weeks. Add no other medications after the MG/formalin. This disease will jump from tank to tank even without using the same hoses, nets, etc. Continue to feed during this process.

Mat

[lhforbes12]

Thank you for your replies PCSB and ShinShin.
A few other questions, if I may?
1. How am I supposed to get the pH down that low? I do have an RO/DI filter and pH Down but I'm worried about too low of a KH. Any suggestions on this?
2. Do I use the Malachite Green and Formalin at their siggested dosage rates and durations?
3. At this point is there any reason to keep them in seperate tanks?

TIA
Larry

[pcsb23]

Mat is right about QT'ing fish, effectively what you have done is not QT them, experience can be a hard teacher.

When lowering the PH you have to be careful not to cause it to crash, go very low, very quickly! Use an acid like HydroChloric / muriatic, but be very careful as it is just about the strongest acid out there. the other way is to add Almond leaves and only remove the waste from thet ank, topping off with RO water.

Personally I would only add one dose of F&MG, as once the ph starts to drop below 7 the risk of seondary infection reduces. The other thing to be aaware of is that the biofiulter is also impaired at very low PH's so that needs to be watched. I would keep both tanks as they are and treat both tanks.

If you are going to use a strong acid I will caution you again to be very careful, a small amount will drop the ph quite quickly. ALWAYS add the acid to the water NEVER add water to the acid.

Also of you choose to treat by lowering the PH do not add any salt.

[ShinShin]

No pont in seperating them now. I would treat for 3 days, myself, with the MG/Formalin. I am not sure about what pH Down is. I am thinking percluric acid, but may be wrong. It should work. If not, as mentioned, muratic acid will do. The problem with almond leaves, peat, etc. would be the control needed to lower the pH precisely as you need. I would make sure, too, since you are using R/O water to mix so that you have enough alklinity to prevent a pH crash.

[standoyo]

most 'ph down' main ingredient would be phosphoric acid... a safer alternatic due to it's components being relatively harmless if any reactions were to take place.

[lhforbes12]

Thanks for the continued support guys. I went out and purchased muriatic acid and AP Rid-Ich, which contains both formalin and malachite green (actually these seem to be the only active ingredients) and it did seem to help a little (hopefully I'm not fooling myself). I am using the HCl _very_ carefully and have the pH in both tanks at 7.0 as I type this. I gave both tanks a second dose of the Rid-Ich today but the smaller fish reacted very badly to it, their breathing became very elevated, so I did an immediate 50% wc on that tank. This slowed their respiation back down to more acceptable levels. BTW while I was out getting these items one of the smaller fish died. The 2 adults also showed rapid respiration but I didn't do another wc on their tank (both tanks got a 25% wc before I redosed), but they seem fine and are even swimming around a little bit, although they have stopped eating. Their color is beginning to return to normal though, so I am holding out hope for them. The younger fish are still eating lightly and are back to "pecking order" fighting... so I take that as a good sign. One thing I haven't mentioned is that the 3 nerwest fish have not shown any sign of illness at all, which is the main reason I consider them to be the source. One of them though now has white feces ( it happens to be a PB, not that I think that would matter) but it is solid and not at all stringy, I'm wondering if this could be from the meds or do you guys think it may have hex. It's gill plates do look a bit red to me, but it's hard to be sure ( fish is under 3" SL so it's hard to see clearly). Again, thank you for your time and help.

Larry

[lhforbes12]

Oh! I forgot, Mat they always have been seperated. I have an adult pair in one 55 gallon and the youngsters in a different 55 gallon. Whatever this is, it is able to move to tanks that are over 10 feet apart.

[pcsb23]

Larry,

Many diseases can be borne on the air, also more than likely you will have used the same equipment in both tanks, your hands, syphon, nets etc. Fish will sometimes go off their feed when ill, for a short period it is not a problem. At the moment don't add any firther meds to thet ank, don't treat the PB for hex just yet, with the reducing PH it will give it a chance to fight it, itself. Hope that made sense!

[raglanroad]

Hi forbes, one thing that is good in this situation is lots of oxygen.

You can add a lift tube for better circulation with an airline and use big bubbles to make some waves.
The fish may be having trouble respiration trouble with slime and the meds too.

Probably some common ailments like costia plus columnaris and accompanying opportunistic infections are capable of some of these symptoms.

Sounds like formalaldehede/malachite is a good suggestion too.

Salt dips seem to be as effective or more so than many meds.
And in combination with furan 2 or formaldehyde/malachite it works fairly well also.

I also personally believe in lots of huge water changes, essentially taking most of the water out daily, and re-dosing meds fully, not following package directions. It is bad form to suggest NOT following directions, so I won't.

One advantage in doing as Paul suggests , keeping the pH low, is that if any biofilter problems appear during med treatments , you are dealing with ammonium, not so much of a problem.
WC's will take care of it until you get biofiltration again.

Dave

[lhforbes12]

Thanks Paul,

I really do need to phrase my questions/responces better, I think. To be clear, I have absolutely zero intention of adding any other meds to either tank in the immediate future. I was just curious on what you guys thought might be causing the white feces and from your responce Paul I'm guessing you feel it's hex too. Hopefully I will be able to treat them with Metro in a month or two.
You are certainly correct about my putting things in both tanks, when I thought about it I had used the same syphon on both tanks (truly stupid in hindsight) and had also used the same diatom filter in both tanks. I have ordered another syphon (Python extension) so I don't repeat this.
Paul I know you think I should continue with the MG/F but at this point I'm just a bit leery after yesterday in continuing treatment in the younger fishes tank. btw the 2 adults still have somewhat elevated respiration but it has slowed considerably, so I will treat them again. I was wondering if you guys think I should go ahead and treat the youngsters tank and just do another large wc if I see problems?

Thanks again for your help,
Larry

[pcsb23]

Larry,

There is always a balancing act that calls for judgement when treating with meds. You have to balance the distress or possible distress caused by the treatment against the benefit in the longer term. I would not treat the youngsters again for a day or two, and then decide in 2 days if they need another treatment. FMG unlike anti-biotics can be stopped without the bugs getting resistance.

You may find that once you are through this treatment that it will not be necessary to treat for hex. Hex is most often triggered by stress in discus, virtually all discus carry it, but a normally healthy discus can deal with it and keep it in check.

Dave raised a good point about an airstone, I'd definitely be putting 1 in each tank.

hth,

[lhforbes12]

Hi Dave,
Sorry I totally missed your post until Paul mentioned it. I do have airstones running in both tanks and also cannister filters with their spray bars pointed at the surface (my spraybars run from back to front and so are spraying water the long way across the tanks. The surface of the water is literally roiling so I think lack of O2 isn't why they're breathing hard. I do understand why you get NH3 or NH4 so lowering the pH also makes sense to me. I am beginning to think that you are correct in the Columnaris infection, it looks more and more like that to me too, but it's hard forme to tell if the white blotches on their sides are excess slime coat or infection. Is there a way for me to post pictures so you guys can see what they look like? btw Dave I am doing 50% wc's daily and have always done that with these fish, do you think I should up that?