DISCUS GARDE -WHAT A BUYER SHOULD EXPECT

[Condor]

Good discussion guys

[lhforbes12]

Amazon, I would agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But that being said, standards are set world wide with Discus shows, the winners would be the quality all others should strive for. Since you are new to Discus and want to learn what is quality, spend some time reading everything in the Discus University. The information is there to give you a keen eye for detail.

I would also agree that breeders classify and promote their Discus differently, some true and some not so true. I am with Willie on the Aqua Bid scenario LOL. Willie is one of the Judges in the University and uses a A,B,C type grading system. Check it out.

After studying the Discus University you will find that you will be grading most Discus that you see. It will take some time and practice to develop your eye to look for the important points. In every batch of 10 Discus you will have a top and bottom Discus and the rest fall in between. All 10 may be quality or all be dogs or a mix of the two. Discus are like fingerprints, they are all different.

If you are purchasing Discus and can't see than personally, ask for pics of the fish you are interested in and a pic of the parents if possible. Use your trained eye to be the informed buyer and do check out the buyer feedback on Simply sponsors. HTH

Andrew,
I couldn't agree with you more. However I truly believe you breeders and you hobbyists are talking "apples and oranges". You breeders, thankfully, are using a totally different criteria than the average hobbyist I believe. If I may I would like to use myself as an example. Two months ago I purchased a 3" lss from a local breeder for $75. I was quite pleased with the purchase. After studiyng Discus University I now find that I, in fact, purchased a quite inferior fish, and consider it to probably be a cull. The fish has far too many faults to be considered for breeding. But all that said, it is still a very beautiful discus (I will never use that breeder again though), and I will proudly keep it in my community tank once it is large enough.

1977 & Amazon,
The folks here that were giving you advice are in fact EXPERTS, and in the case of Willie, a world reknowned one, you may want to keep that in mind before you dismiss what they are telling you.

Larry.

[Elcid]

My recent experience in buying discus suggests the following grading system:

(1) Competition Grade - Breeder wants to sell for good money or win medal.
(2) Breeder Selects - Breeder wants to keep for himself or sell to breeders.
(3) A Grade - Meat for the Breeder
(4) B Grade - Potatoes for the Breeder
(5) AA AAA AAAA etc. Marketing for the Experienced Breeder/Importer

Sorry, I know this is limited to SPONSORS but just my 2 cents

take care,
Sandeep

[discusdave]

When I first saw this title I thought we were talking about a new medicine.

[pharaoh2653]

i am new to discuss and i may be way off but i used to be a dog breeder(boxers) and in my opinion buying a new puppy is in the same fashion as buying discuss. dogs arent rated as aa,a,b or whatever but i sell puppies as either show quality, breeder quality or pet quality. now there is a standard for dogs set out by the breed club that is used to help decide which dog is which(and i would expect the same for discuss although i dont know for sure) anyway this standard usually applies to an adult dog which as with discuss applies to adult fish. now if i understand your question right you are wondering how various breeders determine the quality of the fish and how they can tell from such a young fish. as far as dogs go that comes with experience. i know from experience what a champion dog looks like and from breeding i know what they look like as puppies and can tell and watch puppies grow to adults and tell if my guesses or(expert eye)is correct. there is no way to guarantee anything only make an assumption based on experience, genetics and several other criteria. a promissing pup may be a show champion or through growth not be that is the buyers risk. but it is a good risk because an experienced breeder can not gaurantee u a champion but can seperate pet quality from show quality. and help u make a better decision.
i dont know if any of this makes sense but i hope it helps

[Discus_KC]

Pierre,

Let me pose the question back at you. What are you looking for when you purchase Discus? I would think it would be a quality fish at a reasonable price. I see your profile lists you with 14 discus. How did you come about these fish? Did you IM or Email or call the seller? Or was it a combination. The point I'm making is you need to do your homework.

You need to prequalify the seller first. I buy fish and I sell fish so I see both sides. If you contact me I will ask a ton of questions to see where you are at as far as the hobby. I will ask for info on your tank, your parameters, and the care you intend to give before we go any farther.

If possible you should visit a breeder or seller and hand pick the stock. If you can't, ask for pics of the fish. If you don't receive them, look somewhere else. Give time to the person to take the photos.

Jack

[BobB]

Pierre,

Let me pose the question back at you. What are you looking for when you purchase Discus? I would think it would be a quality fish at a reasonable price. I see your profile lists you with 14 discus. How did you come about these fish? Did you IM or Email or call the seller? Or was it a combination. The point I'm making is you need to do your homework.

You need to prequalify the seller first. I buy fish and I sell fish so I see both sides. If you contact me I will ask a ton of questions to see where you are at as far as the hobby. I will ask for info on your tank, your parameters, and the care you intend to give before we go any farther.

If possible you should visit a breeder or seller and hand pick the stock. If you can't, ask for pics of the fish. If you don't receive them, look somewhere else. Give time to the person to take the photos.

Jack

For me it would be shape, coloring. I guess that covers it!

[AmazonRainbows]

1977 & Amazon,
The folks here that were giving you advice are in fact EXPERTS, and in the case of Willie, a world reknowned one, you may want to keep that in mind before you dismiss what they are telling you.

Larry.

Hello Larry,

I start this post because I realise that the grading system use for selling discus is not a standard, it's varying from seller to seller and when asking them what I should expect from a A grade or a AA grade no one can give me a clear answer. I know that some or many Discus distributor are not there at first to make money and they may loose money trying to import from new breeder. My goal here is realy not to get wrong the expert and if I been missing respect any how I would like to offer my apoligy. But I also think that asking question and asking for a clear answer is not missing respect.

On the bucket full of Discus question I have ask before I did not get clear reply. Having a reply like: <<you are right we would end up with many different result just like when you go in court with diffrent judge>> would be a clear answer to me. This wil tell me that I have to buy from all seller to find out witch one is gradin the A & AA fish according the most to my expection. Nothing more, nothing less. Because it will be base on my expection this will not mean that my best seller will be the best seller. It could be the worst seller for another Discus buyer.

This been said I also read the reply (in this thread) from a folk who buy a Discus as a breeder quality and after reading the Discus university he realise/find out the fish was not so great has the quote received for the sale. If the Discus University can lay some base to help this folk realise/verify the quality of the fish so why there is no standard from seller at least on the bottom grade.

Grading system do not need to be strong like a all or nothing. This could be a list of quality you search in a fish and a B grade is at least 2 out of 10, A grade 4 out of 10, AA grade 6 out of 10 and so on. This will give plany of room to not dowgrade a fish with some realy nice quality because he had only one small imperfection.

I also do understand that just like in the research world or Martial Art there is no clear rule for the one at the top. But at least there is some very strict formation and understanding you must have at the begginer level. You know that a Master in martial Art will not miss a strike use by beginner. I'm not so shure about this in the discus world.

Finaly Larry,
I'm working with expert in many area and I can make a distinction between the so call expert and the true expert by ther ability to clear out fact. True expert have the ability to give you clear answer event if it's not what you whant to ear and to make it easy to understand. When thing start to be mistical they are not comming from expert. They are just not understand yet.

[AmazonRainbows]

Sorry, I know this is limited to SPONSORS but just my 2 cents

take care,
Sandeep

Sandeep i was first asking for sponsor only because I was searching for a clear answer about the rules and not looking at the buyer expectation but I think that now this thread is welcome to everyone

[AmazonRainbows]

When I first saw this title I thought we were talking about a new medicine.

Hello Dave,

I have dyslexia and it's not going better with the age. I realise the miss inversing the A and R to late and there is no way to make correction in the title I read at least two time my post and some time as many as 5 times but still can't catch everything

[AmazonRainbows]

Pierre,

Let me pose the question back at you. What are you looking for when you purchase Discus? I would think it would be a quality fish at a reasonable price. I see your profile lists you with 14 discus. How did you come about these fish? Did you IM or Email or call the seller? Or was it a combination. The point I'm making is you need to do your homework.

You need to prequalify the seller first. I buy fish and I sell fish so I see both sides. If you contact me I will ask a ton of questions to see where you are at as far as the hobby. I will ask for info on your tank, your parameters, and the care you intend to give before we go any farther.

If possible you should visit a breeder or seller and hand pick the stock. If you can't, ask for pics of the fish. If you don't receive them, look somewhere else. Give time to the person to take the photos.

Jack

Hello Jack,

You are right I need to do some homeworks. But when I ask for picture or what I should expect from my purchase until now almost all of the time I ask I have no reply to those e-mail. I just find out that A grade and so on just mean nothing and the best thing to do is to net the fish I purcahse. I can't say i'm not happy with my purchase but I quickly find out they where a lap betwen my expectation and the grading system.

The reality is also the Disucs business is not mature as it is still growing fast. So I don't expect so much out of a standard until the market get to a point where telling the custommer the thrut will be an advantage. When all fish are gone whit nothing left in a fast time there is no need for the seller to make an effort selling the fish to the most demanding buyer.

[Tony_S]

Pierre

This thread has gone in the exact direction it ALWAYS goes...COMPLETE confusion! The reason being....there is no 'system'...no true 'standards' no TRUELY SPECIFIC 'rules' that exist! PERIOD! Ask 10 hobbiest, you'll get 10 different answers. Ask 10 breeders/importers, you'll get 10 MORE answers.
It'll leave your head spinning!
At this stage unfortunately, the only thing that'll answer your questions is experience IMO. Thats one of the reasons the 'UNIVERSITY' was created...to lessen the need for an experienced eye, to SHORTEN the learning curve....To set SOME sort of standard. There's alot of work yet to be done there though....but its a start.
One of the major problems in learning about quality IMO....is the reluctance of experienced members(myself included) to express, and explain thier opinions when it comes to low quality discus posted on this board.
Its happened time and time again(right now for example)...someone posts pictures of low quality discus, or worse yet CULLS....and less experienced experienced hobbiests follow along and RAVE about how NICE they are. Most of the EXPERIENCED and KNOWLEDGABLE members are reluctant to jump in and disagree even when ASKED!! Some have in the past, including myself....and it causes everything from hard feelings to an outright forum BRAWL. So....then all you get to read is 'nice' comments on a BROAD range of quality. It makes it nearly impossible for the 'newbie' to grasp onto anything.
As I said....hopefully as the university evolves, and a decent rating 'system' is put into place...we can set SOME kind of standards and make it easier to learn.

Tony

[brewmaster15]

I agree 100% with Tony Here!

I'll also be frank and honest , Everytime I see this topic in a thread it burns me up. For years I have have dealt with the problems surrounding this issue from a forum management side.... This topic has come up thousands of time.... either its a novice asking for information, a buyer getting burned by a seller for junk discus its always the same..

We created the University to address this issue and have made some tremendous headway. This is thanks to a few very dedicated volunteers.... John nicholson, Willie Loh, Paul Butler, Ryan Hall, shin-shin aka Mat. Without them we'd still be in limbo. What irritates me most about this topic is the lack of response in addressing it .. My partner Ryan and I gave you all the opportunity to address this in a lasting fashion... a Way to fix a problem everyone sees and does not Try to fix. ..and instead of doing that what gets done...Nothing. When I asked for help from the experienced in this community... I got zip..nada, nothing... except for a handful of volunteers....I even pm'd people for help...nothing...

I can't fix this on my own..., and the guys in the university can't... It takes involvement by those that understand these issues...Truth is most are either too busy to get involved and help., too lazy, don't care, or are afraid that god forbid they criticize or say something bad about other sellers fish and then the political engines of revenge come after them. ( sorry... no sympathy there...I understand the problem well...but don't buy the excuse)

I admire those that are involved in this in the university...instead of just talking they are trying to fix a problem they see. I just wish others would do the same...we all reap the benefits of a standardized grading system thats applicable to everyone, not just competition standards...I'd like to see all those people out with years of experience step up to the plate and do something about it instead of whine and moan as has been the extent of involvement by most.

So though I have asked before many many times... We can still use experienced discus hobbyists and sellers in the university...If you want a challenge and a chance to help this hobby, this is your chance.

Thanks,
al

ps..

sorry for the tone...but This topics frustrates me so much that I'd pull my hair out over it...if I had any!

[meltinonesmouth]

AMEN!!!

Pierre

This thread has gone in the exact direction it ALWAYS goes...COMPLETE confusion! The reason being....there is no 'system'...no true 'standards' no TRUELY SPECIFIC 'rules' that exist! PERIOD! Ask 10 hobbiest, you'll get 10 different answers. Ask 10 breeders/importers, you'll get 10 MORE answers.
It'll leave your head spinning!
At this stage unfortunately, the only thing that'll answer your questions is experience IMO. Thats one of the reasons the 'UNIVERSITY' was created...to lessen the need for an experienced eye, to SHORTEN the learning curve....To set SOME sort of standard. There's alot of work yet to be done there though....but its a start.
One of the major problems in learning about quality IMO....is the reluctance of experienced members(myself included) to express, and explain thier opinions when it comes to low quality discus posted on this board.
Its happened time and time again(right now for example)...someone posts pictures of low quality discus, or worse yet CULLS....and less experienced experienced hobbiests follow along and RAVE about how NICE they are. Most of the EXPERIENCED and KNOWLEDGABLE members are reluctant to jump in and disagree even when ASKED!! Some have in the past, including myself....and it causes everything from hard feelings to an outright forum BRAWL. So....then all you get to read is 'nice' comments on a BROAD range of quality. It makes it nearly impossible for the 'newbie' to grasp onto anything.
As I said....hopefully as the university evolves, and a decent rating 'system' is put into place...we can set SOME kind of standards and make it easier to learn.

Tony

[Elcid]

Hi All:

I know this is a confusing topic for the new buyer and a frustrating one for the seller. But, just because there is confusion and frustration does not mean that we should not discuss it in an open forum or be told by the experts that we should learn in the University and thereby become an educated buyer.

Few things I've learned:

(1) There is always a better grade than the one you are buying.
(2) The re-seller does not grade fishes he or she only sells them at the grade at which he or she has purchased them.
(3) Grading is based the sellers personal expections of what the fish might become given ideal situation that the buyer is expected to maintain.
(4) You cannot judge the grade based on some standard shape, color, eye size etc because for each strain the standards are different.
(5) Difficult to get, highly valued strains are graded more generously than those that are in surplus.
(6) The grade of discus is generally enhanced by use of color feeding, hormones, special diet, water conditions, use of antibiotics, and other "trade secret" formulations that the buyer is not able to duplicate.
(7) Never purchase any discus from some unknown seller regardless of what grade they claim it to be.
(8) The sponsors are our friends, our chances of getting better grade fish from them is much higher than anyone who claims to have AAAA grade discus.


Okay, there is more but I have to RUN

Please, no one take offense!

take care,
Sandeep