DISCUS GARDE -WHAT A BUYER SHOULD EXPECT

[AmazonRainbows]

Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us?

Marie ~ What is involve here is not to separate the good from the bad. It is more to have guide line as clear as possible that when a buyer expectation is not meet we can verify easily why and if it's justify. Both side will be winner but only if buyer who purchase are ready to tell what they thruly think and maybe get in fault if they are wrong.

If you look carefully you will see no bad comment on the forum. Do you realy think everybody is happy of every transaction on both side?

In a certain way seller are at the merci of buyer who will dismiss them if they are not happy about the purchase. On the other side for many reasons some buyer may not feel confortable saying they are not happy about ther purschase. This site is very friendly and this may stop some buyer to realy tell what they think fearing being see like bad customer.

We need some guide line so that both side know what to expect out of a transaction and feel free to comment without the fear to be point out.

This will also help every buyer to compare his/her fish with other forum member in a thruly objectif way without the fear of hurting buyer/seller relation ship.

[AmazonRainbows]

Marie,
People need to use the feedback system for both positive and negatives... The feedback is supposed to be based on the total experience ... bad fish do get sent by good sellers...it happens, problems arise. If a seller sends bad fish, its a negative..but if the seller is made aware of the issue , works with you, replaces the fish, or credit, and treats you correctly... I think thats a positive...and theres nothing wrong with stating that there were some issues and the seller worked with you to a resolution... To me, that says alot of about a sellers ethics.

hth,
al

200% / 100% agree with Al. Mistake can happend and it does happend to everyone who are trying to do ther best. (Only poeple who are doing nothing make no mistake). The real thing is how both side handle the situation when something goes wrong.

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,

If you look carefully you will see no bad comment on the forum. Do you realy think everybody is happy of every transaction on both side?

In a certain way seller are at the merci of buyer who will dismiss them if they are not happy about the purchase. On the other side for many reasons some buyer may not feel confortable saying they are not happy about ther purschase. This site is very friendly and this may stop some buyer to realy tell what they think fearing being see like bad customer.

We need some guide line so that both side know what to expect out of a transaction and feel free to comment without the fear to be point out.

That system is already in place and working..The Itrader feedback system gives you the venue to post your experiences... both the seller and the buyer. But if you won't be honest and use it, whose fault is it? all the rules and guidelines won't change that.

One other note...so far ths feedback system, which is still young, has had negative feedbacks and A sponsor was ultimately removed because of what that feedback started in terms of discussions between the sites owners and the seller...


-al

[AmazonRainbows]

Al,

I admit I do not have all the knowledge you and many other forum member have about this site. Thanks to make the correction. But I think there is a little bit of thrute saying there must be buyers & sellers not happy about some transactions issue but not talking about it.

As a teacher I have learn that when something is not clear, it will go wrong right there.

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

There isn't time. Most of us, especially newcomers want fish and now. I want discus that 6 months or 1 year down the road don't turn out to be unwanted discus that I don't know what to do with; should I cull them?, should I sell them? should I donate them to the petshop?. What will be the motivation to do waterchange and make beefheart mix for fish that I'm unhappy with? No Al, I'm not interested in what Quality is not in the absolute sense, I'm interested in getting fish that will meet my expectations in the hobby. I want to be happy with every single fish in my tank and don't want any that I'm unhappy with.

You asked me if I would leave negative feedback for a sponsor. No, Al, I would never leave a negative feedback. The goal is always to work out what I want from a seller and to make sure I get that. If there is a problem in working it out with the seller I won't buy from him or her again. I do have some advises for newcomers that I share, it's upto them to make use of it or disregard it as is the perogative of any individual on this forum.

Al, it's great to see the buyer feedback area and the discus university and I am sure that they will provide a valuable tool for someone who hasn't read any books or is completely new to the hobby. But for those of us who are already a bit down the road I think we need answers sooner than the timeline in which these tools will be completed. You should not take offense. What you are trying to accomplish is admirable and valuable but like you say yourself it is a difficult task and without much support.

Al, I'm not saying that what you are trying to do should not be supported and ppl who are experienced in the hobby should not devote time to it. I just would like to discus some things freely on the boards without offending you or the sponsors. Nowadays I find it hard to post because I think I might offend someone or you. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I want to share my experiences in the hobby and learn for others on the forum. This is a hobby for me. It should be an enjoyable one

take care,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,
I agree that some will not post negative feedback on the transaction....But again...if you give someone the tools and they chose not to use them for whatever reasons they have...There is nothing more that I or this community can do. Feedback systems are not a guarantee , but they are one more thing we try to use to see that people get good discus.

Sandeep,

If you don't want to offend people, then you should read what you post think about if it would offend people..Sometimes we write things to sting with intent, and sometimes we do so without realizing it...You may want to put yourself in someone elses shoes before you make a post that might be offending.

There isn't time. Most of us, especially newcomers want fish and now. I want discus that 6 months or 1 year down the road don't turn out to be unwanted discus that I don't know what to do with; should I cull them?, should I sell them? should I donate them to the petshop?. What will be the motivation to do waterchange and make beefheart mix for fish that I'm unhappy with?

I understand this. Let me ask you something...have you ever Bred a discus and raised Discus fry to adult? My reason for asking is because if you did, you would understand that from each group of fry bred, theres always fish that will not meet your expectations. Breeders of those fish you are buying deal with that and consumers do as well. Some fish do great and then just don't.. Theres no way a seller can provide you with fish that will be 100% all the time what you expect ....Its not possible because there are so many factors involved...


If I buy 10 2" fish from the best of the best sellers...I won't wind up with 10 adults that meet my expections . but I may get 5 that do... for someone else they might get 100%... The problem is the "expections" are subjection....we need guidelines that people can use to buy and sell discus that help minimize that subjectiveness... thats not going to come out of one or 100 threads on this board or elsewhere..Its going to take time and dedication by many people with a common focus...I have no way of telling if the university will achieve this...but we are trying.


Sometimes there is no way to shorten an education taught by practical experience...and time.

-al

[AmazonRainbows]

Pierre,
I agree that some will not post negative feedback on the transaction....But again...if you give someone the tools and they chose not to use them for whatever reasons they have...There is nothing more that I or this community can do. Feedback systems are not a guarantee , but they are one more thing we try to use to see that people get good discus.

AL,

Part of the problem is the feedback system is all or nothing. Rating the transaciton on many aspect from 1 to 5 would help a lot more. I may be partialy satisfied about a fish but very satisfied about the way seller has ship, reply to my e-mail, etc... It's hard to give a negative feedback when one part of the transaction fail. It could also be a tools to help the seller to track where he need to improve to increase his sales.
Another thing will be to rate how saler reply to your question even if sale did not take place. Let's say that if a seller is not giving interest in your question you will drop it but this will not show anywhere because no transaction will never be involve. This could help see if a seller is selling only to newbie or to experienced buyer. This is IMO a good information to know.

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,
Ebay is multi-billion dollar auction site and it uses a system just like ours... I understand what you are interested in but I can't provide it.... the software we use now was bought by us for the website and works within our forums software constraints...to do what you are asking would require paying for special software to be written for the forum.

The feedback system is not all or nothing... Its positive, neutral, or negative.... and most people just look at the percents of each given and not all the details. In addition to that rating system you have the ability to use text to describe the transaction..


here you go...hypothetical rating for a positive that could have been better

"On a scale of 1- 10. Fish 10, communication 8, shipping 7, Overall would buy again"

I don;t know what else I can do for everyone in this.

Another thing will be to rate how saler reply to your question even if sale did not take place. Let's say that if a seller is not giving interest in your question you will drop it but this will not show anywhere because no transaction will never be involve.

-- I can't see it being fair to judge and rate someone by how they deal with you before the sale... This is a sales feedback system...not a personality test... If you don;t get treated as you feel you should when you make an inquiry... you move on as obviously the seller doesn't need the business.

Theres a saying...give someone a hand and they'll want a whole arm! we gave you all a very good hand...its natural to want more, but how much is really reasonable, how much is doable, and how much benefit is really the actual cost and work..... as forum owner... Thats my biggest issue with any of these projects.


-al

[Elcid]

Okay, continuing with sharing my experience about discus grading:

(9) One famous breeder told me that almost 100% of his discus are saleable high quality discus. So always make sure you buy discus from a known reputable breeder or his or her re-seller rather than from a re-seller who does not know who's discus he's selling. This way you can be sure to get better grade fish.

(10) Ask questions to the seller and the breeder you get discus from. They are only too happy to answer. They love to email with their customers.

(11) Target some breeders who's strains you like. Email them, call them, etc. Even if at first you don't get the fish you want, eventually, once you have established a relationship with them you will get better grade discus.

(12) Don't be a happy customer, How's the breeder/reseller supposed to know if you don't complain. There is a good way to complain and a bad way to complain, learn the difference. With enough complaining you will get better discus.

(13) Make friends with the breeder/re-seller. So that they will allow you to visit them when new spawns are hatched or new shipment arrive, cherry picking is the best way to get better grade discus.

(14) Buying discus is not like buying on Ebay, it's always best to buy from ONE SELLER, only!

HTH,
Sandeep

[Tony_S]

Okay I know that I am probably way out of my league here ~ but If I may chime in....

Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us? It seems that people who know of which they speak TALK but then I see that some end up not following the advice given and purchase some where else! I mean I have not been here long and I do not know much but I DO KNOW where I would buy my discus from ~ and who I would not ~ I think....I hope...lol!

Marie....Im not really sure you understood what I was saying here...

(3) Grading is based the sellers personal expections of what the fish might become given ideal situation that the buyer is expected to maintain.

If your dealing with an honest, experienced 'BREEDER' this is true. Less so with an experienced 'importer'....and purely guess work for a rookie 'importer'

Let me try and give a more detailed 'opinion' on Elcid's statement.

I agree with him IF a person is dealing with an experienced breeder such as......lets say "The Master" Cary of Great lakes discus. He KNOWS his fish PERSONALLY. He's grown the fry out, he KNOWS EXACTLY what to expect from his fry. If he tells someone the discus are going to grow out( under optimal conditions) to be winners....its a safe bet they will.

If that same person deals with an experienced Importer, that person is trusting that the importer he/she is dealing with has a good relationships and communications with OTHER breeders and/or distributors. So when the experienced importer tells the buyer that the discus will grow out to be winners....its a good chance they will....but MORE of a gamble.

The person who deals with a rookie importer takes even more of a chance, because often times the 'rookie' importer doesnt have the communication...or trust in place with distributors. He can (and often does) recieve grade 'a' fish on the first shipment....and recieve garbage on the second.....Who's going to get the fish from the second shipment?

you'd be amazed at the lies, deception and secretiveness that goes on behind drawn shades in respect to breeding, importing, distributing, etc.

As for new members asking experienced members, or listening to experienced members advise....overall, it doesnt happen. New members can read time and time again not to buy from an LFS....then head straight to the lfs the next day. The 'common sense' you mention....isnt all that common.

Tony

[Kindredspirit]

Probably not Tony ~


Itz okay ~


M ~

[lhforbes12]

Okay I know that I am probably way out of my league here ~ but If I may chime in....

Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us? It seems that people who know of which they speak TALK but then I see that some end up not following the advice given and purchase some where else! I mean I have not been here long and I do not know much but I DO KNOW where I would buy my discus from ~ and who I would not ~ I think....I hope...lol!





Al ~ I know we should but I do not think I could cuz I would just contact YOU and have you fix it! J/k!! I think that Dan or Cary would have fixed any problems I would have had on a dime ~ IMO ~ and I have seen sellers/breeders make it right ~ I am sure that is not always the case ....and I always wondered ...if they make it right do we still post neg?


Marie ~

And there is the problem
I think this is how most folks truly feel, but this is exactly why IMHO the I-trader system does not work. When you go to I-Trader and see that virtually everyone is rated at 100% I, for one, find that it is worthless. It tells me absolutely nothing as a buyer, so why would I even look there? In private conversations with Al I know that this is somewhat of a problem for him too. But, as Al told me, what can he do about it if no one is willing to "tell it like it is". I don't fault you Marie, actually I applaud you, since you are being honest.
Unless more people can be as honest as Marie just was, the system will never work IMHO.

Larry

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

I have raised discus from fry to adult before and you are right that some will just not meet the grade. Generally, I knew which would and which would not though. I could easily pick out 10 fish out of a batch that I could be almost certain they would be exceptional by 1" size. I don't think I was very clever to pick them out. A few just grow so fast and have shapely figures, how can you not tell they will turn out to be better than the rest?

We all have different goals. I told you mine earlier. Just as you are facing some difficulties in your goals in the Discus University, I'm facing some difficulties getting the quality of fish I'm happy with. But, this does not mean we should give up. We have to fight to get what we want. I know each time I fought I got closer to my goal. Failure isn't an acceptable end we have to try every way possible, we have to set the standard high, then we can have an acceptable conclusion.

HTH,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

It may be a little too late to ask but is there in this site a list about the questions to ask when doing a purchase? A basic list with many points to verify to help reduce the risk of missunderstood and deception.

[Kindredspirit]

And there is the problem
I think this is how most folks truly feel, but this is exactly why IMHO the I-trader system does not work. When you go to I-Trader and see that virtually everyone is rated at 100% I, for one, find that it is worthless. It tells me absolutely nothing as a buyer, so why would I even look there? In private conversations with Al I know that this is somewhat of a problem for him too. But, as Al told me, what can he do about it if no one is willing to "tell it like it is". I don't fault you Marie, actually I applaud you, since you are being honest.
Unless more people can be as honest as Marie just was, the system will never work IMHO.

Larry

I am the problem ~ thanks Larry ~ It doesnt work because ....I know that the breeders I get my fish from wld always make it right? So..I guess that I shld have posted in I-Trader no matter of the out come ....

I always forget to do that ~ I guess that people see what I have and that speaks a thousand words ~ and from whence they came.....



Marie ~