MARIE HAS DONE IT NOW.....

[April]

there you go..take your pics. dr. brewmaster is here.
it could be water..did you check your ph and ammonia? then the eyes would be cloudy..and the fins white..

[kdazzel]

I feel so bad for you , I hope they get better

kdazzel

[Kindredspirit]

why dont you have a tank for things like gobies..and plants..and driftwood etc...and leave your discus with discus and bare bottom?

Hey you ~ Thanks April for being here ~ I do have a tank set up just for my gobies ~ they are alone ~ the discus tank that is sick now is bare bottom except for this fake driftwood and three attached real plants and nothing has been added new to this tank but that a week ago ~ I will post some pics of the set up ~

soon as people relax..and figure..oh..i got this downpat..and can get more creative..more chances of things going wrong .

Well how true is that statement ~ very true ~ you couldnt have said it better ~


So ~ when do we become confident enough April?



Marie ~

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,

The white patches you see... are they on the body only? How do the eyes look, are they clear or cloudy? and the fins? clear or opaque?

can you post a bunch of pics of the fish now....from several angles..

Try not to over worry here.. Illnesses in fish don't always mean fish deaths will occur. You did good by flagging it early and if its bacterial it'll be easier to treat.

-al

Hey Al ~

Thank for stopping by ~ I do not have any patches anymore ~ there was only one patch on that first pic ~and yes they are only on the bodies ~ Now....some look like the second pic ~ the fins are clear ~ some clamped ~ eyes are clear and normal ~ this went from one small white spot last night ~ to each fish in that tank on dime Al ~ it spread so quick ~ from 7:30am to 8:35am this morning ... one hour.. they all had it but one ~

I will post some more pics in the morning if that is okay ~ Al listen earlier they were like up at the corner of the tank def trippin and in the bubble stream ~ it was real scary ~ I have two air thingys in my 2 Hydro Sponges ...but they seem to need more air.. so I added another.. can they have too much?

Ya know Al ~ i qt that fish ~ that new discus and still ..only Me.. can still screw it all up



Marie ~

[Kindredspirit]

I feel so bad for you , I hope they get better

kdazzel

thank you very much ~

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
*You* didn't screw up anything... sh*t happens...
And you are taking care of it. Quit blaming yourself your piccies show what appears to be exactly what my fish had and you have already started on the correct course to cure them. btw mine also seemed to like being where there was a lot of water movement... near an airstone, near the spraybar. I really think in a few days you will be amazed at how much better they are. Do the salt dips woman!

Larry

[Kindredspirit]

aww...Larry ~ stick around okay? thanks ~


Al~

Here are some pictures ~ they are not very good forgive me but the tank is green now and I have the lights off ~ I can try for better shots just say the word ~

Note how quick they went down compared to the pics I posted earlier ~ It is 11pm here now and they do not look worse at this point ~ The Pigeon snakeskins were the last to get it but now look the saddest ~ the ones that lost slimecoat seem to be more active at times ~ I had never seen slime coat before ~ It is a sad thing to see ~ If I do not see it ever again it would be too soon for me ~

[Kindredspirit]

Al ~

Here is the pic of the 'blue Angel' I got at the lfs ~ I bought him on the the 15th and this pic was taken on the 17th~ I also added the plants on the 15th to the 55gal in question ~ nothing was in the 10gal qt tank ~ with this discus ~

[lhforbes12]

Marie, Your "blue angel" (looks like a BD to me btw) looks like it has exactly what your other fish have now to me. (it also looks like what mine had) why do you think it wasn't the source?

[candyl70]

I think Marie IS thinking this is the source. The plants and the fish came from the same store..... so.... it's one or the other. Either way, I'm thinking that the cause isn't as important anymore, just treating them and getting them well is. Right??
Blue angel in this case is a BD... just different names to make them sound fancier.

[raglanroad]

Marie, first, I'm confused if you already have the furan or not. If not then use the salt dip regardless of what is wrong ( a bit of overstatement).

to answer your main question, stress means SHITTUMS ! It's the equivalent of a ride to the hospital ;if you have to, go, you have to.

You can start with 2 tablespoons per gal. and go up to 2 1/2, 3and more. Not sure, but for Koi they say as high as 9tblsp./g. can be done. Even 5 minutes should help, and watch the fish the whole time, and if it rolls over, put it back in the tank. If it is very still, touch it to make it dive/react.If it reacts it's still OK.


the question about full course of med:Furan is not an antibiotic such a tetracycline is. Furan kills stuff. Lots of stuff. I would see how it goes before deciding on how many days, for furan. If after a while on furan, they are improving but not well yet, I would go a BIT longer with the treatments.

I would also get malachite acriflavine med on order .

Basically, I've dinked around with erythromycin, tetracycline, triple sulpha type stuff they sell and I can't say anything about them, if they worked or not. percentages were not better than super clean water for cloudy eye if caught right away.Some went bad and during repeated and varied treatments died.

super clean low pH low TDS Water has a 100% success rate for cloudy eye, on my angels, so far in about 5 or 6 cases. Some people say using a good % fresh every day, no more dechlor tapwater and high oxygen works better than meds for lots of diseases.So there ya go. Meds are tricky.

We'll see what Al thinks about the look of them right now.I keep angels.

Dave

[lhforbes12]

Candy,
I definately agree with you.

Dave,
Yep, bottle says 4 days and that's what it took for my fish. Marie had enough Furan 2 to dose for today only but she over nighted a 100 cap bottle and will recieve it tomorrow... erm today actually, given what time it is as I type this.

Larry

[raglanroad]

This may be wildly innacurate, but from the little I've counted up on forums, hobbyists got maybe 60 % survival at this stage using furan 2 alone.

[lhforbes12]

Dave,
In my case I was doing as you suggested, low pH, low temp, salt dip and Furan 2. 100% effective for me once I was on the correct course.

Larry

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,
I am guessing that your new discus brought in a strain of pseudomonas and you inadvertently passed it into your tank...Be very , very careeful of the other tank ( not sick) .. The reason why I think pseudomonas not columnaris is how it spread from your QT tank to the other tank...This bacterial pathogen is adept at spreading in drops of water ( think air pumps and water bubbles).. I would cover the non-sick tank with a plastic, be sure to allow a vent for the light....Its just a guess though on the ID... if it gets bad, theres labs at Berkley that can probably identify what it is..


wash up with 90% rubbing alcohol before going anywhere near that other tank...bleach all hoses etc.

On these fish...I would treat with Furan 2 as you were advised. You will need 10 days worth of antibiotic minimum. (try jehmco.com if you are having trouble finding it locally.) ...By day 5 things will start to turn around if the bacteria is responding....continue the medications until all signs of infection are over..,,,generally 10 days will do it.
During this time...large water changes daily before dosing is absolutely critical to remove ammonia and nitrite..I have noted repeatedly that furan 2 can really impact your biofiloter...especially the bacterias that break down nitrite.....so nitrite spikes are common. The methyline blue in Furan 2 will help reduce toxicity there..

Salt dips are a useful tool here to remove the slime coat and the bacteria on it...They are scary when first done, and can kill a weak fish, but I have used them many times and they do help. I would certainly try them. If used in conjuction with dye like methyl blue they can really be useful for parasites.

Salt in the tank, as a bath...I personally subscribe to using salt as a medication for discus when they suffer from bacterial issues and external parasites... it aids in slime coat turnover and decreases stress, protects from nitrite poisoning..Adding salt of up to 1 tablespoon/ 1 gal water has never harmed my discus but it may be especially helpful in the event that this is columnaris...It may prevent the bacteria from attaching... Salt has proven its usefulness in treating these ailments to many Discus hobbyists..... Like all things in this hobby Not all agree on using salt as a continuous bath, but if the fish were mine...I would hit them with salt in the tank Plus furan 2 .... 1 -2 tabelspoons salt per gallon. I and many others including Cary Strong have used salt like this for up to a week. When you do your water changes... replace whatever salt you take out to maintain levels. The Salt that is best used is the non-iodine Kosher salts at super markets...its easiest to measure and not expensive.

Is the SALT necessary, maybe not, no way to really know.. Those that try it often say it works great...Those that havent tried it cite that discus come from low salt waters..which is true...and they feel that it may stress out the functioning of organs like the kidneys.. which again may be true in theory.... but for me if it does have negatives they are outweighed by the positives in a short term treatment.....

I can only tell you what I would do and my thinking behind it...ultimately the choice is yours..

pH drops and maintaining it in acidic ranges... helpful yes, but only if you are comfortable with adjusting pH.... Inexperience here could kill your fish or stress them out.

Whatever you do...lots of water changes... and stay the course with the furan 2...it may look initially like its not working...They look worse in the slime coat because theres a major battle going on there. they hang in the corner or airstream because often times. iF Theres gill inflammation from bacteria..this makes oxygen transport harder....so add additional aeration if you see this.

Good luck Marie, and don't lose heart...many many people have gone thru this, sometimes all the QT in the world doesn't help, but it does illustrate what happens when you don't QT ....You may have spread the disease from QT..but if you had put that BD into the tank without QT..what you are seeing now would have happened so fast that half the tank would probably be dead already.. your care and QT slowed this to the point that you may be able to catch it soon enough and cure it.

Hth,
al

ps... questions? you know how to reach me