Reply With QuoteETR63,
Simply add some baking soda (do it slowly, a little goes a long way) and that will add to your KH. Fast, simple, cheap. Be aware though that raisnig your KH will also raise your pH.
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Ammonia production
Hi All
Can anyone tell me how much ammonia is produced by lets say an average size pair of discus in a 29-gallon tank in 24 hours being fed two times a day? I have a KH of 1-degree hardness and I am trying to fishless cycle a 29-gallon for a pair I want to separate from one of the big tanks but due to the low KH, my pH keeps crashing. This is causing the cycle to take forever. Im trying to keep the ammonia at 2 PPM at the moment but once the pH crashes the cycle stalls. At least that seems to be the case, I’m no expert my any means. I was wondering if I try to keep the ammonia at 1 ppm would that build a big enough bio filter to support an adult pair? All opinions welcome.
Earl
Re: Ammonia production
ETR63,
Simply add some baking soda (do it slowly, a little goes a long way) and that will add to your KH. Fast, simple, cheap. Be aware though that raisnig your KH will also raise your pH.
There are 10 types of people on this planet; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Re: Ammonia production
Earl,
Bacteria will grow in an acidic environment, but grow faster in an alkaline, warm environment. Larry's suggestion is probably the cheapest means of increasing your ph & Kh, and since you don't have fish in there and will need to do a 100% WC before adding the fish anyway, I'd say pour away
When I do a fishless cycle I usually bump the ph into the mid 8's and keep it nice and warm (about 86F).
When your water crashs, the cycle doesn't really stall.. it s l o w s d o w n ...
Jim
Re: Ammonia production
Hi Polar Bear and Jim
Thanks for the replies. How much baking soda should I add to a 29? My temp is at 86. Now I am concerned that when I put the fish in and use just aged tap that I may have a PH crash. So far in the big tanks (75 gallons and in the past 55 gallons) daily WCs of 50% have kept the PH stable. In fact I have gone 2 days without a WC with no crash. But I stick to the 1 discus per 10 gallon rule. Does anyone know approximately how much ammonia an adult pair would produce in a 24-hour period? Also even though I have a KH of 1, a GH of 7 and a PH of 6.9 after aging. I have a TDS of 205 so I was thinking that I might have to do a tap/RO mix for a breeding pair. I don’t know if I can maintain a stable PH with RO in the equation. I really don’t want to add things to the water if I can avoid it. Again all opinions appreciated.
Earl
Re: Ammonia production
Hi Earl. I believe it will be directly related to the amount of nitrogenous material being fed. You can crudely work it out mathematically from the amount of protein going in, if I'm not mistaken.Originally Posted by etr63
Dave
Re: Ammonia production
Hi Dave
So if I feed alot of FBW then the ammonia will be higher?
Earl
Re: Ammonia production
the more you feed, the higher the ammonia output. I'll take a look around to see if there are any formulas available to use, that will be more helpful.
I believe there is an average conversion factor for meat that is about 6, or that one gram of nitrogen is in 6 grams of protein. The ammonia is made with the nitrogen of course.
I'll check it out a bit if I can.
Re: Ammonia production
this is a good explanation of nitrogen and protein analysis of foods. as you can see, the protein content is usually worked out through nitrogen measurement, though there are other nitrogenous products too.
So the guess on the package is going to be reconverted to nitrogen amount, and so should be fairly accurate.
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbook...e/80129E03.htm
I don't know that this can be helpful though, in attempting to match ammonia output with filter capability.
BTW, it seems that analysis of ammonia after digestion is a really accurate way to measure. And that's the thing you are interested in.
When the equipment is available, the determination of ammonia in digests may be carried out on an autoanalyser system using a colorimetric method based on reaction with an alkaline phenolate-hypochlorite reagent. This method has proved reliable and can save time. Earlier hopes that food samples could also be rapidly digested with complete recovery in an autoanalyser system have not been supported, and it is still necessary to digest samples prior to autoanalysis.
d
Last edited by raglanroad; 12-15-2006 at 02:27 AM.
Re: Ammonia production
When you have a low ph which is what discus like you don't even have ANY ammonia at all. I believe its ammonium which is non toxic. Stay up your water changes so your ph doesn't reach toooo low of a level. And if you have a big main tank why don't you just seed the new one?
Re: Ammonia production
I like the way you think re low pH and WC. Take the danger away, regardless of colonization times.
Re: Ammonia production
Yep, like the last post, too. (See last comment here).
To answer a few questions, 1 teaspoon of baking soda will increase the kH of 30 gallons of water about 1 degree.
Not sure why your water has a GH of 7 and a KH of 1. Are you adding acid to it? That would explain it, other wise, you have some abnormal water where GH is not mostly contributed by calcium carbonate, or there is a source of acid also going into the water before it comes out of your tap.
To answer the question of how much ammonia, I use 5 drops of ammonia per Juvie to adult Discus per day. This is overkill, but will definitely work. You may need to build up to this amount of ammonia gradually to keep from stalling the process.
Also, 6 Juvie Discus will increase nitrates by about 3 ppm per day in a 55 gallon tank if fed at a maximal rate with high protein food (tetra color bits, blood worms, etc.)
Yes, ammonia added to water will produce a very alkaline pH, which will convert to a very acid pH as the ammonia is converted to nitrates, during cycling.
Adding baking soda as the pH goes low will prevent problems, as will water changes once you start having high nitrate levels. Keep going until you use up the 5 drops of ammonia per fish each day. (reading zero ammonia 24 hours after you add the 5 drops of ammonia per fish to be added).
I agree that using a cycled sponge is the easiest way. However, if you are adding a bunch of Discus to the tank, you may want to beef up that cycled sponge and new filter media by using the fishless cycling method so that it will convert all ammonia from the new fish from day one, rather than having ammonia for the first few days while the sponge catches up.
Back to the water changes--this should also be done regardless of the method you use to enhance your biofilter and will prevent and really large ammonia build up no matter the level of your biofilter.
Re: Ammonia production
Hi All
Thanks for all the replies. As of tonight the tanks seems to be cycled. Test show ammonia = 0, Nitrites = 0, PH = 6.8. I am going to do a 100% WC tonight and place the pair in tomorrow. Hope all goes well. Should I wipe the tank down? This is the only pair I have that I feel is a true pair. (From seeing the tubes). They spawned again last night in the community tank. So far they fan the eggs well and I think that some may have hatched on there last spawn but not sure. Some of the eggs still fungus over. My biggest concern with the way things have been going with the PH during the cycle is having a PH crash with the Discus in the tank. Well you don’t know until you try. Fingers crossed.
Earl
Re: Ammonia production
Hi All
Well I just put the pair in the 29-gallon along with 3 tbl spoons of salt. Hopefully they will spawn again soon. I don’t have lights on the breeding tanks. Is this a problem. There are small windows in that room of the basement one in front of the tanks and one in back of the tanks. Also there is a one-bulb fixture on the ceiling in front of and in back of the tanks. The one in front of the tanks is on a dimmer switch so I can turn it down at night and still have a little light in the room.
Earl
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