Food For Thought..... Deformities

[Beth]

After some thought and argument with Tony...... about Bulldogs.... and a recent thread...........

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showt...336#post321336

I'd really love to hear everyones thoughts on this subject as for where the line should be drawn with Discus shape and Domestic breeding programs.......

Why is or isn't it okay to breed Discus this way?????

Beth

[lhforbes12]

Beth,
As you probably already know I agree totally with your husband about this. To me bulldogs, or whatever name you wish to call them, are nothing more than culls and abominations. Discus should be round... period. That said, I am not quite as against them as Tony, while I would never own one, I think those that enjoy them should be proud to own their deformed fish. I've said this before, I feel about them the same way I feel about Blood Parrots, they are abominations but if you like them I see no reason not to keep them.

Larry

[Rod]

I think discus should be round and smooth shaped, afterall that is why they are called discus. But as long as the change does not cause pain or suffering to the animal i have no major objections but when it comes to dyed, tatooed or surgery (chopping tails off ) then i have a problem with that persons way of thinking. I also think that way with goldfish, too many of them can't swim well because of swim bladder problems due to shape change.

[poconogal]

Hi Beth. To me, breeding FOR DEFORMITY of any species should not be done. Its a travesty! In nature, deformities many times cause the death of the animal. That should tell us something! Its one thing to breed for different colors or patterns, that's aesthetic. But in nature, a Discus looks like our tank bred Discus, shape wise. To what purpose would breeding these deformed fish serve? A different look? Sure, but WHY? Why a deformed look? Isn't the Discus beautiful enough, with their sweet faces and graceful, floating round bodies? Those bulldogs are shaped funny and definitely don't have the beauty or sweet looking faces of a regular, NORMAL Discus. Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Connie

[chompy]

Although the bulldog discus is unique, they just look way too unnatural for my liking. I too put the bulldog in the blood parrot catagory... something mother nature would never create and something I wouldn't buy. People always want something new and unique though so I don't see this kind of thing going away. But if you like them... all the power to ya

But I can't say I dissagree with breeding them because I don't know if being a bulldog discus hinders them in anyway. Does anyone know if they have a shorter life span or are seceptible to anything.

I don't agree with breeding anything if you are weakening a species... dosn't matter if its a bulldog discus (if infact they are weaker), pug dog, or bubble eye goldfish. But I have no problems with things like discus (tank bred), flowerhorns, or muts because they are perfectly healthy.

[Dissident]

Don't people breed for albino traits in discus too?

[mickeyG]

I think that selective breeding or "changing genes" is good as long as it is benefiting/improving/helping the species in some way. Also if it is benefiting mankind - regenerating lost tissue etc. Selective breeding for money or profit should be criminal. If these fish were an accident of nature gone all spooky (like a deformity), then they have the right to a good life just like everyone else. Though I'm not crazy about the look - I would not cull them. If done for profit I would cull the perpetrators.

[Kindredspirit]

I think those that enjoy them
should be proud to own their deformed fish.
Larry

Larry! lol!


As I understand it they were deformed initially and then continued to breed ~thus we have them today .....

I guess it is all what you are used to ~ I am not sure if I could get used to them ~ they look ' cartoonish' to me ~ and they have a very fat chin ~ I think thatz the chin! ~ a definite eyesore to me ~ not pleasing to the eye ~ and a discus shld be IMO~

And they appear elongated to me ~ if that is the right word!
I guess the million dollar question for me is: Were they culls and abominations to begin with and someone just fell in love with them ....and so it continued?

But what is "normal"? Some wld say that is a relative term ~


Marie ~

( thanks Beth ~ I so wanted to know more re this issue )

[Dissident]

Maybe someone should talk to the breeders of bulldogs and those who keep them instead of throwing around speculation?

Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they should be culled, unless you are the self-appointed definitive voice on discus.

The fact is people breed for all kinds of traits in their fish. If people like them and want them and there is no genetic damage to the fish's overall health then fine.

IMO I feel albinos are ugly, and I don’t like high-fin/high body all that much. I’m not about to start a thread about what the best way to make discus-fish-stick out of them quite yet.

This whole thread is based off of personal preference and speculation and has NO substance whatsoever.

[Kindredspirit]

Maybe someone should talk to the breeders of bulldogs and those who keep them instead of throwing around speculation?

Sounds like a plan to me ~

Dis ~ come on now ~ Lets dont take all this too personally ~ you are so wise I bet if you wanted you cld contribute to this thread ...yes? Please?? ~ I wld like to know more ~ I think we can all discuss with respect and not step on anyone's toes ~ Hopefully ~


You seem to know more than you let on.....


Marie ~

[Ryan]

I really dislike these discus. There are a couple things that I'm curious about because I've never owned them, but some of the reasons I'd be leery of them are:

1. Does the smashed in face and high body change anything about the fish in a negative way? For instance, aren't some fish like balloon rams or balloon mollies actually shaped that way because of a misshapen spine? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought when you had fish that were smooshed like that, it was because of a bone structure issue. If that's the case, is that healthy? And is that something you'd want to breed for?

2. If bulldogs become fairly common and people start trying to spawn them with normal discus (assuming that they can spawn normally), what is to keep the genes from spreading into "normal" stock? Right now, tons of discus have throw-backs to pigeon bloods or red turks, but do you want "bulldog" genes hiding in that mix somewhere? I wouldn't want to breed two "normal" round discus and end up with a huge percentage of "bulldogs" because those genes were present.

3. I think colors are one thing... those are cosmetic and in the aquarium they aren't going to matter much one way or another. You can get into the debate about "where do you draw the line?" but to me, breeding for an albino fish isn't the same as breeding for a fish with a misshapen body. Color and pigmentation isn't going to get a fish singled out and killed in our tanks like it would in the wild, so I don't think you're doing anything to hurt the fish by breeding for a specific color. However, if you are breeding a fish that is structually altered in some way, is that healthy? Is there anything about it that negatively affects the fish?

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't care much for any fish that seems to have difficulty behaving normally. This includes a lot of the goldfish (especially the bubble-eyed ones, what were they thinking?), super veil angels that have issues swimming, all types of blood parrots, balloon rams and balloon mollies that seem to waddle rather than swim, and the long-finned oscars, which unfortunately seem to get dyed blue and pink a lot here... so they can't swim AND they're injected with dye.

Ryan

[Ryan]

This whole thread is based off of personal preference and speculation and has NO substance whatsoever.

Beth never said she was looking for a solid, definitive answer as to whether or not we should allow bulldogs or cull them, she just asked for everyones' opinions on why it is or isn't okay to produce these sorts of fish. If you like them and enjoy them, that's fine... but there are many people who do not care for them. This is a discussion forum, so I don't see how posting a topic of discussion could have "no substance." If anything, this topic will probably be an interesting (and heated) one.

Ryan

[April]

have these fish been sent to discus shows? ie. aca, duisburg? aquarama? how are they judged if they have made their way there? were they judged in their own category..or are they to be judged on the description of a discus. and would a judge choose a bulldog over a regular round discus?
curious..
carol? you judged..whats your thoughts on this?

[kaceyo]

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. It's rumered that bulldogs have fewer virtibrae but as far as I know thats all it is. A rumer based on speculation by people who don't like them. People tend to think that they are qualified to decide where the line is drawn and judge everything beyond that line as abominations and anyone who doesn't agree is by comparison to themselves moraly corrupt. There are many people who believe keeping any kind of fish in a tank for personal pleasure is an abomination against nature. Are they right? How many of you have owned dachshunds or any type of bulldogs (the canine kind) or miniature or toy dog of any kind? It's well known and documented that they were developed by breeding deformities into their lines that resulted in shortened leggs or a convoluted sinus or whatever. Dachshunds have trouble running as compared to standard shaped dogs but they live quality lives. This is kinda beside the point tho. If I like a certain type of fish and it's healthy and whole and I think beautiful then why should others be upset by this? It's opinion, not a moral issue.

Kacey

[chompy]

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. It's rumered that bulldogs have fewer virtibrae but as far as I know thats all it is. A rumer based on speculation by people who don't like them. People tend to think that they are qualified to decide where the line is drawn and judge everything beyond that line as abominations and anyone who doesn't agree is by comparison to themselves moraly corrupt. There are many people who believe keeping any kind of fish in a tank for personal pleasure is an abomination against nature. Are they right? How many of you have owned dachshunds or any type of bulldogs (the canine kind) or miniature or toy dog of any kind? It's well known and documented that they were developed by breeding deformities into their lines that resulted in shortened leggs or a convoluted sinus or whatever. Dachshunds have trouble running as compared to standard shaped dogs but they live quality lives. This is kinda beside the point tho. If I like a certain type of fish and it's healthy and whole and I think beautiful then why should others be upset by this? It's opinion, not a moral issue.

Kacey

I think were all waiting for an expert to clear things up so we can make a definitve choice. You make many good points and voiced your opinion and thats all we're doing here . I think the line between an opinion and a moral issue is a fine one... I think they are one in the same