Food For Thought..... Deformities

[Dissident]

I really dislike these discus. There are a couple things that I'm curious about because I've never owned them, but some of the reasons I'd be leery of them are:

I agree with you there Ryan, I don't particullarly care for them either. But I think the best way to look at it is with an open mind.

1. Does the smashed in face and high body change anything about the fish in a negative way? For instance, aren't some fish like balloon rams or balloon mollies actually shaped that way because of a misshapen spine? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought when you had fish that were smooshed like that, it was because of a bone structure issue. If that's the case, is that healthy? And is that something you'd want to breed for?

That is the $10,000 question. Speculating and alluding that they are unhealthy or anything less would be irresponsible.

2. If bulldogs become fairly common and people start trying to spawn them with normal discus (assuming that they can spawn normally), what is to keep the genes from spreading into "normal" stock? Right now, tons of discus have throw-backs to pigeon bloods or red turks, but do you want "bulldog" genes hiding in that mix somewhere? I wouldn't want to breed two "normal" round discus and end up with a huge percentage of "bulldogs" because those genes were present.

Yes that would be a great concern if it is genetic, espically if there are other health issues. Again do we know if it IS a genetic trait? If it was a recessive wouldn't they be more common, 'bulldogs' are not that new to the scene.

3. I think colors are one thing... those are cosmetic and in the aquarium they aren't going to matter much one way or another. You can get into the debate about "where do you draw the line?" but to me, breeding for an albino fish isn't the same as breeding for a fish with a misshapen body. Color and pigmentation isn't going to get a fish singled out and killed in our tanks like it would in the wild, so I don't think you're doing anything to hurt the fish by breeding for a specific color. However, if you are breeding a fish that is structually altered in some way, is that healthy? Is there anything about it that negatively affects the fish?

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't care much for any fish that seems to have difficulty behaving normally. This includes a lot of the goldfish (especially the bubble-eyed ones, what were they thinking?), super veil angels that have issues swimming, all types of blood parrots, balloon rams and balloon mollies that seem to waddle rather than swim, and the long-finned oscars, which unfortunately seem to get dyed blue and pink a lot here... so they can't swim AND they're injected with dye.

Ryan

Do these 'bulldog' strains exist in the wild? Or is it a result of unethical breeding or other manipulation of the fish? Is this a natural, but rare, occurrence like albino strains?
Honestly, there are a few basic questions that need to be asked (and answered) before any substantial arguments can be postulated regarding bulldog/egg/whatever strains.


~~
Personally I'm not a fan of the appearance but I WILL NOT condemn the breeder/fish/whatever by only seeing a few pictures of a strain (like so many are already doing) that we have known to be in existence for some time now…
At least until I know exactly what we ARE looking at. And it seems no one does… yet.


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Beth never said she was looking for a solid, definitive answer as to whether or not we should allow bulldogs or cull them, she just asked for everyones' opinions on why it is or isn't okay to produce these sorts of fish. If you like them and enjoy them, that's fine... but there are many people who do not care for them. This is a discussion forum, so I don't see how posting a topic of discussion could have "no substance." If anything, this topic will probably be an interesting (and heated) one.

Ryan

I wasn't trying to single out Beth at all, just trying to make a point that so far all comments regarding the strain are based of assumption. She jsut has the joy of being the topic starter for probably what is going to turn out to be the thread of the month. (think you admins should have an award for that)

[Kindredspirit]

But for some it is a moral issue Kacey ~ I guess ~ but I want to know why all the breeders that we know here ~ do not breed them or sell them...yet? Do they spawn? Do they get sick more? Differently? I am so curious! Are they more expensive? We are pretty much learning who likes them and who wld float them in their tanks and and who wld not ~

But I want to know who breeds them and HOW ~ and why ~ too ~ hellums letz just put it all out there And I want to see a bone structure ~ a diagram ~ an x-ray will work !

Marie ~

[Ryan]

All very good points. I guess what I really would like to know is how we came up with bulldogs and why they are different. I'm not a breeder, so I hope some of the folks who've had experience with these fish will reply with their thoughts on the fish. I'm also not a biologist or ichthyologist, but it would be nice to hear an explanation as to why these fish are shaped this way, and what (if any) problems or difficulties (or even advantages) they may have over "standard" discus.

Ryan

[crimson cross]

The genetics for breeding "round" fish is quite attainable to most hobbists who understands the basic laws of breeding and raising discus, but not so for hi fin, hi body fish.....maybe this is where the line separates the men from the boys or the women from the girls.....
Just my two bulldogs worth..

On a side note, even great breeders like Schmidt Focke, Hans Jurgen Zell, Manfred Gobel, Siegfried Hohmann and to some extent, Jack Wattley sought to have fishes with higher bodies and fins.....and I wonder why.???
Phil.

[poconogal]

Don't people breed for albino traits in discus too?

I really don't think that a color, or lack of color, can be considered a deformity. Color is superficial, for aesthetics. IMO, A deformed spine, or whatever the bulldogs have that is deformed about them, is quite another issue.

[Dissident]

Did a little digging, not much info out there regarding the strain.

I included two excerpts from one ‘JimmyL’ from discusasahoby.com and simplydiscus.com, not sure how reliable it is but it is very interesting. He does seem to be the only one posting any viable information regarding the strain.

Source: http://discusasahobby.com/forum/index.php?topic=4385

Bulldog is a special stain of discus that originated from the Wild Brown Discus with the charisteristic of having only 5 bars. They were large discus with super high fins and massive body. The old timer who saved them were very disappointed with them with flare gills and unable to fertilized eggs with their massive body. They were consider a cull and most would not keep them. Many previous masters with their own analysis of deformed fish and cull saying this kind of fish were missing a few vertebrates. Some breeders were able to breed them and found their offsprings carried their own characteristics and developed high fin and body. The original elongated wild characteristic has changed to round body with high fins. but the flare gills were still a problem. With selective breeding and improvement of the strain. The Bulldog name was discarded and different name were used and the "D" shape of fish was formed. Without knowing the original of the fish. Hobbyist had high praise of the fish and many champions were found among the offsprings. Short gill plates was still the problem. Even todays fish sold by some breeder without first screening them will show short gill plates of their fish. Some customers who complained about it get the answer that they will grow back...... ??? ???. that I know it's untrue from my fish. The normal fish with perfect gill plate has to be sold at a higher price and people were willing to pay for their body shape. Unfortanely only a few breeders appreciate their shape and willing to risk netting fewer profits and only develop the cobolt blue strain and not the others.

Source: http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=221050

In fact, most of the round discus in the market are carrying bulldog genes. They have been crossed with many fish and varieties to improve body shape. But not a pure bulldog like the blue tiger. The only thoroughbred are cobalt turquoise. The breeder use the grade B or grade C to cross with other fish. Not too many people can afford the grade AAA fish like Kumlin's. Mr. Wong does not breed the Bulldog. They require special technique to breed the grade A fish due to their body shape. Only grade B or C are able to fertilize eggs because of their less masculine body. He bought it from the same breeder in Penang. Min. order of 10 fish. That's why you only see a few fish in his store. He may have adults that he raised and cross with his own fish.

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buy posting this I am not advcoating that this is 100% truth. All that i could dig up durring a smoke break.

[Dissident]

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. It's rumered that bulldogs have fewer virtibrae but as far as I know thats all it is. A rumer based on speculation by people who don't like them. People tend to think that they are qualified to decide where the line is drawn and judge everything beyond that line as abominations and anyone who doesn't agree is by comparison to themselves moraly corrupt. There are many people who believe keeping any kind of fish in a tank for personal pleasure is an abomination against nature. Are they right? How many of you have owned dachshunds or any type of bulldogs (the canine kind) or miniature or toy dog of any kind? It's well known and documented that they were developed by breeding deformities into their lines that resulted in shortened leggs or a convoluted sinus or whatever. Dachshunds have trouble running as compared to standard shaped dogs but they live quality lives. This is kinda beside the point tho. If I like a certain type of fish and it's healthy and whole and I think beautiful then why should others be upset by this? It's opinion, not a moral issue.

Kacey

I couldn't agree with you more Kacey.

[Squiggy]

But what is "normal"? Some wld say that is a relative term ~

Not true!...My relatives definately aren't normal....

On subject...I don't like Bulldogs. I think the breeding programs stepped out of bounds when the first peppered discus was marketed commercially. But, thats just me...

[Martin]

I dont see the problem with calling them deforme, they are definately not normal, wouln't you call a discus with 2 tail fins deformed ?

[aisarang]

I think the question would rely on the comfort zone of our hobby and our ethics. As this question really does approach both. I'll just give my thoughts and not rebuttle any other comments, as quite frankly i hadn't read them all. There are and always have been debates over the rights and wrongs and the boundaries that breeders can or can't tresspass before they're approaching the tasks of God. Fish and alot of aspects of society dwell on aesthetics, and for some time now, that's generally been what the masses agree upon as beautiful. If discus were bulldog faced naturally and we were breeding them to become round, in theory the round shapes would be a deformity and would the response we're giving them now, be hypothetically the same then? Furthermore, the question of whether or not it's right ot even attempt to procure a stable stock of "odd" out of the norm discus falls into the category of ethics. Is it morally ethical to even breed these fishes or are we becoming too cruel in our hobby and practice? It's all opionated, makin the topic that much harder to prove right or wrong, because in the end, there really isn't one.

[Timbo]

to tell you the truth, it doesnt really matter if other people agree or disagree on ethical grounds...money talks.

if there is a market for them (and there certainly appears there is) breeders will produce and sell them. and they will probably be VERY expensive until supply catches up to demand

[Martin]

There are some good things about these monsters. I have become more keen on keeping the wild strains and keeping them wild.
I hope more feel the same way.

[lhforbes12]

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. Kacey

Kacey,
I believe you need a dicionary:

"Deformity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A deformity is a major difference in the shape of the body or a body part compared to the average shape for the area in question."

These discus are obviously deformed, now if you were to ask whether or not they are handicapped, that is a different matter. Dissident has answered that for us already though.

"Only grade B or C are able to fertilize eggs because of their less masculine body."

So... we have culls being produced by culls. I do stand by my original statement though "I think those that enjoy them should be proud to own their deformed fish. I've said this before, I feel about them the same way I feel about Blood Parrots, they are abominations but if you like them I see no reason not to keep them."

Larry

[Tony_S]

There is no 'Standards commission' or 'Ethics commision' in the discus industry. If there was, we could submit concernes such as these to them...and they could let the hammer fall. Unfortunately there isnt, so we have nothing more than OPINIONS to share with each other.

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. It's rumered that bulldogs have fewer virtibrae but as far as I know thats all it is. A rumer based on speculation by people who don't like them.

Kacey, there is no speculation involved. It doesnt matter if these discus in question have fewer vertebra, curved spinal column or a straight spinal column etc. They ARE deformed in every sense and definition of the word.
Thus....the use of the word.

People tend to think that they are qualified to decide where the line is drawn and judge everything beyond that line as abominations and anyone who doesn't agree is by comparison to themselves moraly corrupt.

Yes Kacey....I do believe Im qualified to draw a line for myself, and yes, I do believe anything beyond that line is an abomination, and any who profit from said abomination, are themselves "moraly corrupt".
Do you not have any moral standards? Im willing to bet you do! You may believe that deformation of tropical fish isnt worthy of personal moral standards for yourself, and thats fine....but your asking/telling others they shouldnt have them??
It seems to me that you, and others have drawn a line (however vague) and are asking/telling the REST of us to stand behind it?
If its alright for you to ask me to stand behind YOUR line.....why isnt it alright for ME to ask you to stand behind MINE?

Let me give my OPINION on these fish.....

These discus in question IMO are disgusting...period. They are NOT natural in any way, shape or form...nor are they beautiful in any way shape or form. They are deformed, un-natural, freaks! Freaks which MAY occur in nature....but are quickly eliminated from the gene pool due to the fact they dont/cant survive because of NATURAL selection. NATURE has decided these fish dont belong...not humans.
Should they be bred domestically? IMO, NO!

And the domestic dog argument is a weak one at best....just because humans have been 'deforming' critters for centuries, doesnt mean its right to do so....

[kaceyo]

Larry,
I stand corrected. Thank you. But my dachsund analogy still stands. If these fish were fluttering around the tank in distress then I could undersand the argument that it's an issue of ethics. As is, I think it's an asthetic preference. To be honest I don't care for the look of the face on the full blown bulldogs either. But I can admire them for the differences and can see how usefull they'd be in a breeding program where taller deeper fish are the goal.
To me a nicely shaped Blue Knight (or standing egg) has a regal look and is one of my favorit fish. The bulldog genes in it are what makes it so beautiful.

Kacey