possible kh problems?

[raglanroad]

no Graham, you are sticking to a theory that has no evidenciary support.
You only gave opinions, and even one you gave was about a secondary anecdote. No luck. Then you quit talking. Now you start again.

Present scientific evidence or don't say you gave evidence.That is only fair and in keeping with all scientific inquiry.
Thank you,
Dave

[Ryan]

Swings and crashes in pH do stress discus. I don't have any scientific evidence, but I don't have to be a scientist to know when something is wrong with my fish. Other fish may be more tolerant of wild swings or dips in pH, but discus do suffer from them. Things seem to be especially bad if the changes are frequent and keep the fish even mildly stressed.

This thread will not become a pissing match. I will start deleting posts. The last pH thread involving Graham and raglanroad went on too long and it went way off the topic of the original post. I would suggest dropping the issue now before it results in any further heated discussion.

Ryan

[raglanroad]

Thank You Ryan. When moderating a discussion, if you inject your opinion strongly stated as fact, while offering not a shred of evidence, then the moderation and the strong assertion of opinion seems to be less than objective.
In essence, you are saying "be quiet, I will tell the facts here."

Others here say they know it doesn't cause illness, so there you go. NO evidence of such a well worn theory's truth.

I'm out of this opinion contest.

Dave

[Graham]

Jeez all that typing for nothing.. ..Ok Ryan I'll let it go...nice to see that someone else also knows that swinging pH is a problem

G

[Ryan]

I don't care if there are discussions regarding pH.

Dave, you can start your own thread in the Water section, and you and Graham can go back and forth until the cows come home. However, the minute it starts to become personal attacks, I will close it. I could already tell by reading earlier posts in this thread that some people were making it personal. There is no need to lash out at anyone for a difference of opinion. If people cannot come to this board and debate a topic without getting personal, it'll just get shut down. My point in the second part of my post was not about the subject matter at hand, but about the way people chose to approach the discussion.

As for my opinion in the first part of my message, I stand by it. I state it strongly because I have seen what pH issues can do. If you disagree, that's up to you... but I'm not so easily convinced that what I've seen with my own eyes is wrong.

In essence, you are saying "be quiet, I will tell the facts here."

No, I am not saying that. I am saying, "I will tell you what I have seen based on my own experiences. Oh, and by the way, if you can't have a discussion without it becoming a mud-slinging thread, don't bother posting."

That pretty much sums up what my previous post was trying to say.

Ryan

[raglanroad]

I only attacked a deceptive argument, which is the basis for the advice given, and then personal attacks were made to me, as they were before. The PROOF is in, my words are here, and the string of epithets sent my way are forwarded for your consideration as to who is the abusive member here. See the "meds" reference by Poconogal; I have forwarded the abusive PM mail to admin.

Also, I have not responded to Graham in any way other than by scientific discussion, though he made a sideways couple of jabs.

As to your repeated assertion, Ryan, that your eyes are the judge in this pH swing case, others here have stated differently, that they saw that pH swing causes no illness. Your opinion only. So no case whatever to give facts from.

Important to realize that whether or not you are convinced is immaterial to scientific discussion of the material.

Sorry, "thems the facts".

Dave

[Sharn]

i have no scientific knowledge for either of your arguments and just go on what i read- ph swings (over .2) and crashes are bad for your fishies in some way. i want to make my water stable enough to not have to stress worrying 'is the tank going to crash while im at work' and who knows what happen. connie answerd my Q regarding if my kh is high enough to stop swings and it isnt so im going to break out some more mighty shell grit and get on top of that one

larry- i know what ya mean but im less experienced than him and id rather play it safe until i have more experience under my belt

edit- connie- before the w/c the ph was between 7 and 7.2 (so well say 7.1), after it was bang on 7 so its not too much of a fluctuation

[lesley]

Hi Sharn,

I can only say what I have found. My discus were often very unhappy before I learnt to keep my water at a stable pH. They were sometines jumpy and sometimes hid. Others times they looked great. I now keep my water stable at 6.8 and a kH of three drops to reach yellow and they look great all the time and rush to the front of the tank each time someone approaches.

I have to use rainwater (no tap water here) It has no measurable kH or gH readings and the pH can vary from 5-7 depending on whether we have had a lot or rain, or not (water is stored in concrete tanks).

I have in the past had pH crashes where the carbonates read nil and the pH has dropped to 5- 5.5. Discus have ended up with cloudy eyes (mostly clearing eventually) but they always seemed to live to about 5 years and then would get spiro or bloat or something. I do believe that even if they survive these pH crashes that permanent damage is left.

I have found a commercial kH up powder here in Australia that does not raise the pH! I have spoken to the guy who produces it and think that it may well include carbonic acid, he doesn't want to say what is in it! But it does work and does not raise the pH. Everything else, including all the homemade mixes that I tried did raise the pH.

I really do think that stability matters.

HTH

[Sharn]

thanks lesley!!

im going to work on getting it all up to perfect once theyre in the new tank, dont want to fiddle around with them at present as theyve just settled in and i have to move them again lol!

what brand is that powder? its easier for me to use grit but im just wondering, might be handy to have in the cupboard. we probably cant get it in little old NZ though

[poconogal]

i have no scientific knowledge for either of your arguments and just go on what i read- ph swings (over .2) and crashes are bad for your fishies in some way. i want to make my water stable enough to not have to stress worrying 'is the tank going to crash while im at work' and who knows what happen. connie answerd my Q regarding if my kh is high enough to stop swings and it isnt so im going to break out some more mighty shell grit and get on top of that one

larry- i know what ya mean but im less experienced than him and id rather play it safe until i have more experience under my belt

edit- connie- before the w/c the ph was between 7 and 7.2 (so well say 7.1), after it was bang on 7 so its not too much of a fluctuation

Sharn, I don't think that little fluctuation is an issue, then, as its only about .1. From early morning to nighttime, mine can change by that much - I see it on the PH monitor. Since you're aging your water anyway, if you wanted, you could still add shell grit to internal filter to raise KH a little more, I don't see the harm in it.

[lesley]

Hi Sharn,

what I use is "KH Poweder +7.0" manufactured by Aqua-pics, Po Box 2183 Foundtain Gate Shopping Centre, Narren Warren. Vic 3805.

If you want, I will see if I can get a phone number.

By the way this product adds potassium as well. The guy was very interesting to talk to, he said that you could raise the potassium levels to 40 ppm without stressing fish, and he actually said that it increases the fertility of the fish. I have no clue whether or not that is true, my water is not quite right for eggs to hatch so haven't been able to prove that one. I have anubias and like low light plants and don't add fertiliser when I am using this powder. One of the things he said was that if I used it, I wouldn't need to use co2 for my low light plants. He is right in that respect. My plants generally look pretty good.