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View Poll Results: will the discus pair eat the free swimming angels or adopt them?

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  • adopt them

    16 36.36%
  • chow down, eat them, feast etc

    28 63.64%
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Thread: Discus fostering angel fry...thread renamed.

  1. #31
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Over on SimplyCichlids I posted videos and pictures of two angel pairs tending each other's fry. Angels can be fickle about rearing fry -- I know you can use discus as "surrogates" with other discus fry sometimes, but I'd never determined whether or not angels would accept fry from other pairs.

    I found a few interesting things. The first was that the angels WOULD readily accept and rear fry that were not theirs, even when the angels hadn't actually spawned or laid eggs. Second was that my pairs, which at one point spawned within 2 days of one another, quit trying to attack and kill each other at the eggcrate divider and actually COOPERATED in raising the huge batch of fry together (all 4 adults). And the third thing, which was the most interesting, was that a conditioned pair of albino kribensis freely moved and herded angel fry, but never ate them. This was a surprise, because it's a completely different species from a completely different continent.

    I would assume that any animal with a strong parental instinct has the potential to raise young from another species. Discus, in my mind, are one of the most "involved" fish when it comes to raising their fry, and I would think that they'd continue to raise the angel fry unless they felt they were defective and ate them as Al mentioned.

  2. #32
    Registered Member April's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    theres been a few breeders who had central water system..and the fry got through .and spread through all the tanks. the pairs adopted them. they didnt have fry of their own..but they cared for them and went dark and produced slimecoat.

  3. #33
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    I had an Apple Snail raise some Discus fry for me. He wasn't too happy about it. "Slow as a snail" does not apply then Discus fry are trying to feed off them.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Mama Bear

  4. #34
    Registered Member Kindredspirit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    I have an Apple Snail! He is getting too big tho....Liz...whatever happened with the fry? Incredible pic!! What happened to the parents that the snail had to take over?

    Great Story


    Marie ~

  5. #35
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    LOL Liz!!!

    heres a mpg...sorry on the quality I'm having some operating difficulties..


    -al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-21-2010 at 01:31 PM. Reason: vid link broke
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    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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  6. #36
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Amazing, Brew. I voted that they'd chow on 'em. But they're loving them just like they would if they were their own. I see what you mean about the babies not wanting to stick.
    Marie, The parents started nibbling on them. Don't ask about the fry. Same old story.....
    Mama Bear

  7. #37
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Its been pretty amazing to watch .. I think the main problem here is going to be the adhesion... when angel fry get this age and start to detach.. I have noticed my angels gather them and move..they pile them up...on a sponge, in the corner..... they don't religiously try to stick them back like discus do...Discus expect the fry to stick pretty much until they go free swimming ...angels adhesive glands probably are weaker and stop working sooner..

    I think if I tried this in reverse there would be no problem with angel pairs adopting and raising (until the discus ate them or starved)... But What I see now makes me think the discus pair will think the fry are defective..... they are still tending them...but the fry are scattered all over the tank bottom...few on cone..... I think its going to frustrate the parents.

    I really do wonder if this pair will eat them and then spawn in the next few days to week...That would be great...it would say alot about the biology of Discus..already I feel like I have learned a tremendous amount.

    -al

    ps..I'll try to post more movies..once I get the quality down pat.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  8. #38
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Movies uploaded..

    vids removed....bad link....see end of this thread...
    -al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-21-2010 at 01:32 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  9. #39
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Al,

    The angel fry should all be free-swimming soon though. Do you think adult discus instinctively know when the fry should go free swimming? I guess what I'm getting at is, do the parents know, "Hey this is too soon for them to be off the cone" or do you think they just go with the flow? You will have a portion that leave the cone early, but for the most part the free-swimming should occur at about the same time for a majority of the batch. Once they leave the cone, you'd think the discus would switch from gathering/spitting mode to herding mode like angels do.

    A couple more interesting observations about the angels I was working with. They were vat-raised for several generations, so although they were domestic color varieties they sort of had that wild angelfish mentality. I actually had a few fry (not all) act like they were feeding from the parents. They would swim close to their sides and "attach", it looks like they were biting or grazing. The parents would let them do this.

    Also, the angels signalled to the fry with rapid fin twitching. The female seemed to do this more, but both parents did it. They seemed to do this in order to round up all the fry or signal them for danger (they did this everytime I approached the tank). Do you think the discus signals will confuse them? Or is there a chance the discus parents will somehow convince the fry to feed off of them?

    This is interesting. I hope they don't eat them

  10. #40
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Hi Ryan,
    I am really hoping they get to free swimming ...I want to see if the Discus try to attract them.. Discus actually twitch as well to attract their fry...Its a a much stronger trembling than I have seen in angels. I think though that it will work the same.... I think the angels may graze off the sides of the discus as well.. the angel fry do like grazing on algae in the tank , and i am sure its one of the components of discus slime.. I think it will be more of a "we eat anything edible" thing though, vs the" I crave and love Discus slime"

    I'd say the next 24 hours are critical...If even a handful are reared I would be amazed and thrilled!

    -al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 10-02-2006 at 04:10 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  11. #41
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Well, we know that Uaru produce slime and feed their fry, but not to the extent that discus do. It makes you wonder... if the slime is there, will they just know to eat it? Maybe any cichlid fry would eat slime if their parents produced it. I'd guess the reason angel fry don't graze from the parents is because the parents aren't producing excessive amounts of slime like discus do. But since it's available, I'm almost positive they'll eat it

  12. #42
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Well at this point all the Fry are off the cone...Theres a few scattered around and a couple of big piles in the corners of the tank ( water currents)....

    Th discus are pretty much hoovering over them still... I am hoping tomarrow will have the fry free swimming...fingers and fins crossed.

    -al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  13. #43
    Registered Member Kindredspirit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    This thread is so very interesting Al! I think of it often and wonder what will happen...ultimately....in the end ~ Will you try this again? I think you shld!

    What do you think will happen Al? Did you ever say? What a great experiment!


    Marie ~

  14. #44
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Hi Marie,
    I voted that they would adopt them. If I had worded my question slightly different and just asked if they would eat them a or adopt them.? The Answer would have been a resounding yes...They adopted them... that obvious by their behavior and the movies.. they are treating those fry exactly like they would their own offspring... So I am absolutely thrilled with that... That tells a very important bit of information about how Discus Recognize their fry....


    So at least initially they adopt them.... My concern is if the fundamental differences in how the angel Fry adhere and free swimm verses Discus Fry is going to cause the Discus to lose interest and then eat them....or if they will actively raise them.. At this point I don't know.. I hadn't ever considered the possibility that adhesion to the substrate may be an issue. Time will tell.

    One thing to note.. This isn't really a good experiment..It lacks controls and is limited in Scope....Its at best a very interesting set of observations that could lead to further real experiments...so will I try it again? I love a good question that needs an answer !

    So Marie, what did you think of the clips of the discus taking care of the Fry?

    -al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  15. #45
    Registered Member poconogal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any one want to gamble on this one...no money, just for kicks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kindredspirit View Post
    This thread is so very interesting Al! I think of it often and wonder what will happen...ultimately....in the end ~ Will you try this again? I think you shld!

    What do you think will happen Al? Did you ever say? What a great experiment!


    Marie ~
    Al, like Marie said, this thread IS so very interesting. I am finding it more and more fascinating and I really look forward to all your updates. I can hardly wait to hear the ultimate answer! Thank you so much for posting this.

    Connie

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