Want to Breed Heckels?

[Apistomaster]

Hi you fellow wild discus keepers/breeders.
Many of us have bred and raised at least one or more of the 3 major color forms of brown, blue and green discus. (I don't want to quibble over the scientific classifications) but only a handful have been successful breeding and raising the Heckel form. Doesn't anyone besides me think that this is long overdue?
To that end I want to offer the suggestion that we start up a Heckel Discus Study Group with the aim of cracking the code of what it takes to breed and raise Heckels. The attainment of that goal is much more likely to become a reality if we pool our efforts and knowledge.
I have been close before but as we all know that only counts in horseshoes.
I now have ten Heckels which are entering early maturity after having grown from 3 inches across in May '06 to about 5 inches across now. Many are beginning to show signs of early pair formation; some are demonstrating sooting of the unpaired fins associated with most discus entering the breeding phase. I don't expect them to be fully mature for about one more year, Heckels seem to mature at an older age than all other discus color forms.
The Angelfish Study Group(TASG) is doing this with their efforts being focused primarily on the successful breeding of Pterophyllum altum, their problem child. Heckels share much in common with altum angels. The greatest similarity is the difficulty in finding a reproducible formula for successful breeding both the altum and the Heckel discus.
I hope that I can generate some interest in this goal. It is, in many respects, the last frontier in Discus breeding and the creation of domesticated strains of Heckels could also result eventually in the creation of many new and beautiful color forms based on the Heckel geno and phenotype.
I have been keeping and breeding both wild and domestic discus of and on for over forty years. I had expected by now that the Heckel puzzle would have been solved but since it has not I see a worthy challenge and goal to improve our knowlege about this discus.
An incentive might be to remember what fabulous fish Dr. Schmidt-Focke accomplished over twenty years ago with some of his experiments. Some of his fish still stand today as some of the most beautiful fish ever seen in the hobby.
Larry

[Polar_Bear]

Larry,
I'm pretty interested. Please count me in

[ShinShin]

Me as well. I personally know of one person that has bred any form of Heckle to Heckle. Dennis Hardenburg did so, but his fish were domestic Heckle Hybrids that he purchased from Ray Kosaka. These fish from Ray were Asian spawned F1's. I believe as well from my discussions with Ray that they were Heckle/domestic hybrids that carried the Heckle bars. Even so, that's better than I have accomplished. I just picked up some Heckles from Belowwater with an attempt to spawn as the reason for the purchase. Jerry (yogi) has spawned a Heckle/wild blue pairing.

Mat

[Ryan]

Those that have supposedly bred P. altum claim that the fish need a very large tank and that they didn't spawn until 2 - 3 years of age. One person got viable eggs and then later fry, but once past the wriggler stage they started dying off. One suggestion was that it was a water issue... it was extremely soft and acidic. Maybe they didn't have a way to keep it stable enough for the fry.

I'm wondering if heckels are going to be the same way. Maybe a huge biotope tank with mature (2 year old) heckels and very soft, acidic water filled with tannins?

I had some Asian heckel crosses that expressed the 5th bar. I loved those fish. I would love to own some wild ones but I haven't been down that route yet. I can't contribute much to a project like this but I would be very interested in it and I think most hobbyists would enjoy following along with the efforts by those with the heckels.

Ryan

[Moon]

I am very much interested in this project. Many years ago I did have a pair of wild Heckels and they did spawn. This was not because of my fish keeping skills but pure fluke. I was playing around with water chemistry. I was using deionized water and was reducing the ph gradually. One day I found eggs. The ph was down to 4.o at spawing time. The eggs did not hatch and were eaten after about 48 hrs. Soon after I had to move so I gave the pair to Bob Wilson of NADS fame. I lost touch with Bob for a few years and later he nformed me that they never spawned.
Presently I have 10 Altums growing out in a 100g tank. I am hoping to add 6 Heckels to this tank and try adjusting water parameters when the fish are adults. I am not able to locate a good source to obtain good wild stock. Oliver has some but the price at $300 a pop is somewhat beyond my range.
Count me in.
Joe

[raglanroad]

I am very much interested in this project. Many years ago I did have a pair of wild Heckels and they did spawn. This was not because of my fish keeping skills but pure fluke. I was playing around with water chemistry. I was using deionized water and was reducing the ph gradually. One day I found eggs. The ph was down to 4.o at spawing time. The eggs did not hatch and were eaten after about 48 hrs. Soon after I had to move so I gave the pair to Bob Wilson of NADS fame. I lost touch with Bob for a few years and later he nformed me that they never spawned.
Presently I have 10 Altums growing out in a 100g tank. I am hoping to add 6 Heckels to this tank and try adjusting water parameters when the fish are adults. I am not able to locate a good source to obtain good wild stock. Oliver has some but the price at $300 a pop is somewhat beyond my range.
Count me in.
Joe

his best friend D.J. spawned some Heckels . There's an article that is difficult to find written by Dale, something like "back to the wild" or the like.
d

[Apistomaster]

Well we have a cadre now. This is not going to be easy but this challenge needs to have a group working the problem. Ragalandroad and I have discussed this in the past because we share an interest in the altum project as well and there are many paralells between these two species. Both seem to mature later than there cogeners and share a preference for the very low ph and and low TDS water. I cannot pursue both the altum project and Heckel project at once because of space limitations but staying abreast of both efforts is going to prove beneficial.
I am gratified at the number of us who are interested in the Heckel challenge.
Also even an incidental spawning is an important accomplishment because where there is smoke there will be fire. Hybrids are relevant, too although let's try to get some F1 pure Heckels to form a nucleus of potential breeding stock. It only would take a couple of successful Heckel spawns to provide enough raw material to establish a "domesticated" aquarium Heckel strain. Once that is established then we could do some controlled experiments with outcrosses with other color varieties. There are some crosses that could become very desireable after we master Heckel production in general.
This is going to take some time but to my knowlege a group dedicated to producing tank raised Heckels has not been attempted before.
Dave, you probably know more about how to go about establishing a formal Heckel Study Group than most of us,especially me. So please contribute any suggestions you feel would be helpful.
Perhaps simplydiscus leadership could help set up a separate category in the forum for this venture to help act as the clearinghouse for shared information concerning our collective efforts.
This is one of those rare opportunitities where we aquarists could produce ground breaking accomplishments that aquarium history would remember.
Collectively we have among us a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge and I do think it will take all the time and resources we can spare to making the existience of a domesticated aquarium race of Heckels a realility. In truth, I think this is going to be easier than the sister Altum breeding project but still a major challenge.
I'm more excited about discus now than I have been in many years because of the interest you have all expressed here. This one belongs to us, not the mass producers but the serious advanced hobbyists. This is a dream I have been wanting to fullfill for about 40 years of discus breeding. It is only now that I'm retired that I can dedicate my resources to this project.
My e-mail is apistomaster@clearwire.net
Larry Waybright

[raglanroad]

Larry, one suggestion might be to agree beforehand that any member who does have success will sell his fry preferentially to other group members to attempt breeding with wild. Of course, it would not be reasonable to not get a good price, so maybe a price for fry should be agreed upon first, whether it is actually above or below market price - which is only a hypothetical anyway.
all breeding must be recorded so that there is no intentional inbreeding for a few generations before linebreeding or inbreeding is attempted with the precious wild genetics.

Sports are great, and so are great characteristics of individuals,but if they have genetic flaws to go along with the desired traits, it's sometimes virtually impossible to remove them later.

For instance: if a dog with beautiful coat is found amongst a litter, but the parents have bad hips or bad teeth, to then try to eliminate these undesirable characterics may be tough.

But if the stock which the individual came from is healthy in other regards, it is so much better. It's comparable to seeking lots of good fruit in a couple of seasons from a peach tree, or in first growing a good solid tree and then getting the fruit.
If in a hurry, a bush will provide lots of peaches quickly. but the tree that is pruned and healthy takes longer, and in the end is longer lastng and more productive.

that's about all I can think of.

D

[Apistomaster]

Dave,
I had pretty much the same thoughts. Those who want to participate are the people who should have preferential access to any Heckels we are able to produce and of course the greater the genetic diversity that we can create the better off the future of the "domesticated" Heckel will be.
I am puzzled about Moon's? statement that Heckels were $300. The price of small Heckels has been about $30 ea in US dollars. Much lower than in the past so getting stock should not be a very big hurdle for discus keepers used to much higher prices than $30 each.
I think that most of us have about the same thoughts about these fish may require more space and more exacting extreme water conditions in order not just to induce spawns but to get the eggs to hatch. Until and unless we get several generations of TR fish a very low pH and virtual 0 TDS will probably be necessary to produce viable spawns.
First things first. That is we have to have a lot of different groups of fish growing up with their future spawning in mind before we have to worry about fry distribution. I would estimate I am about a year away from having my first chance with the fish I have. Because they have grown so much since May '06 they are in need of a much larger tank. I may have to compromise and divide the ten fish into two 75 gallon tanks because I have very limited space.
I would have to take down a bank of 20 Longs to be able to set up even just a 125 gallon tank but that would cripple my ability to raise other fish that help me pay my hobby's way. Unfortunately my market is too rural to absorb as many discus of any kind. Heckels are gong to be a very specialized project. The average discus keeper typically does not understand just what makes them special or understand why them when there are so many other varieties available that are much more colorful let alone much easier to breed. Heckels are not everybodies cup of tea.
I'm lucky if I can sell 300 turquoise discus a year to all the shops within about a 250 mile radius around me. I have made a choice to live where the fly fishing is good but in doing so I am not near any Metropolitan market.
So I have to remain diversified. I am committed to confining my wild discus efforts to Heckels.
Larry

[raglanroad]

Why Oliver should charge stiff prices for some discus I don't know. He's got about the lowest price in the developed world for altums.
Larry, the altum is an easier fish to breed than the heckel I would think. Or maybe there are just a lot more altum people.

We have 4 people who have bred them in the past right here and now talking to us.

There is the single fry or so produced that Ryan is tallking about (Rick Smarchiars* fish *spelling, sorry !) Minnisota area ?, and Mr. Linke's fish, whatever they are.
I can't say, but there is something different about the Linke fish that is troublesome, and the rumours are everywhere.
I started the altum club exactly because I thought the Linke fish were not pure altum, but they do show what must be a huge % altum influence.
It's the broken barring spread so thoroughly throughout the Linke strain that is disturbing. They are not considered altum in our club, just in case. If Linke talked about the problem we could handle it I suppose, but nobody has gotten an answerr yet that I know of. Considering the concern even from his sellers, I feel It is justified to exclude Linke fish.

We had at least one of the Linke fish breeders in Quebec, sold as many to Oliver as he wanted, and another who bred wild altum in Quebec that Oliver tells of. We have several Japanese breederrs, 2 that I can think of, and of course, another Linke fish breeder, and another of the same in Singapore,and a few reported in Germany, many many tank breds , coming from Russia, CZ., Poland and so on. We don't know the details of these mass produced fish. Could be from Linke fish.

So there is this connection between altum enthusiasts and Heckel people.
Many of the altum breeders are discus people too: Gran,
Ed, Frank, and so on.

And we have Joe (Moon) with some Heckels that were at least laying.

I originally went to discus sites to see why the discus people were better with altum than angel people. Now I think the discus people will learn from altum people. We are defintiley not domestic angel people, as a group, I would say.

[Darren's Discus]

Hi ,
very interested in your heckel project iv'e only ever owned 2 heckels about 20 years ago and would love to give them another go now. problem is getting the stock if anyone can put me on to someone who would ship some heckels to australia.

cheers

[Apistomaster]

Hi Dave and fellow Heckel'ers
I don't know about whether altums are easier than Heckels to breed. There is a point at which in somethings, specifically Heckel Dscus and Altums that each have aspects about their biology that makes them both the most difficult of their genera to breed in captivity. I think altums probably need more room and that makes their physical maintenance more expensive because large tanks are so expensive and they seem much less social than discus. That makes growing up a group of prospective breeders more of a problem. Heckels always seem to me to be perhaps the most social of all the discus. I have kept them successfully with other discus but they always do better with only their own kind. All the groups I have kept so far are much less territorial than the other discus. Taking care to not indulge in too much inductive reasoning, all the Heckels I have kept never set up a pecking order so intense that the least dominant fish ever became run down or beat up. This is a genuine problem with the other forms of discus.
While not the most desireable method , at least with angels there is always the option of artificicially hatching a spawn. Although possible with discus it is not very practical for most of us. I suspect that much artificial methodology has been used in the SE Asian discus farms and at least for some time Jack Wattley also raised discus that way. Over the years I have had more trouble with discus breeding pairs with poorly developed brood instincts that I suspect is a by product of their means of mass production than I had when I first began breeding discus. All my wild pairs were good parents and my older vintage tank raised were close to 50% good pairs.(This data applies to experiences that I had in the early '70's) There is also the spector of hormone use among the commercial SE Asian fish. Those fish I raise from SE Asian parents eventually are as colorful as their parents but they are not as colorful at the same small size as the imported fish. Draw your own conclusions. These Asian sourced fish grew up to produce many more basically useless breeders with perhaps only 15% of the resulting pairs having been good parents in my own experience. I am keeping a group of my home grown turquoise as replacement breeders so I will have more to go on this subject this time next year as to whether my hypothesis holds water. At least I will know every detail of their upbringing
I would really hope that if we can get a tank raised population of Heckels we promote natural brood care.
In the end I think that the two species present equally difficult challenges, just different in aspect. I am equally interested in the outcome of the Altum project.
The good response to the proposition of trying to breed Heckels has made me even more enthusiastic about my own fish. I am redoubling my efforts to provide my fish with even more attention to their well being. I'm clearing out the 5 Peruvian Scalares and the dozen Copella vilmae? from the Heckel tank and just leaving the Hypancistrus for both their coolness and contributions they make to cleaning up lost food particles. They take the place of Corydoras in this respect and they do well in the warm discus water compared to most Corys.
The problems our Australian friends have to deal with are unfortunate. You are victims of history with all the serious problems alien species have caused to your continents natural ecology. I hope that there are reasonable avenues available to you that will allow for the import of more wild discus into Australia. Even then, I know that you have to pay a high price for what comes in. I wish you good luck because it is going to take a lot of talented aquarists to bring domestic Heckels into reality.

[Chinaman]

Hi guys,

I also have this heckel bug i love them, I like to breed them as well. For the last 18 months I have lost two batch of heckels, and lost half of my third batch . All of them eat well and then they just drop off. The second batch were 3" ate like a pig. then they just start to spin round and round and then drop off. I must of spend about $2500 on them, can't really afford to spend anymore.

I did brought 6 RSG X heckle from the discus show in germany, two of them have paired off. But even if I can breed them, the fifth bar will most likely to disappear after a few generation.

Dave, you might want to pick G's brain as he has bred heckels...... Only if i knew he bred them about 8 years ago before I had a break from discus. It might have been a different story. As far as I know, from f1 onward it did not inherit the blue face from the parents. I think he also mentiion that the f3 still carry the fifth bar.

cheers

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
I have heard he's retired now... but my advice to any of those truly interested in the venture with heckels is to try and contact

Herman Chan of Fairy Lake Discus

I believe there is probably no better resource on breeding Heckels in the USA than he...My understanding is he has done it multiple times..

hth,
al

[CliffsDiscus]

Herman Chan, he just called me last week. He is still in business, but he doesn't have a store full of Heckels anymore. He did tell me a few secrets
about his Heckels one day and did mention that Dr. Walls Colbalts back in the 60's were actually some of his Heckels, later Dr. Walls sold his hatchery to
Bing Seto in the 70's which Bing rename his Heckel as Bings Colbalts.
Herman is still the masterbreeder of Heckels. Herman's Special is the cross with
Royal Blue and Heckels, then there were Heckels cross with Red Spotted
Greens, later in the 80's it were Heckels with Turquoise.

Cliff