So ya wanna planted Discus tank?

[BSW]

I have Eco and Pigeons, I don't notice increased peppering so much, although I hear that dark backgrounds and substrates might increase it ? But mine didn't.
But Eco will jack up your PH for a while, when it's new. It will go back down though.
B

[IAMTHOMAS]

wow nice write up! But do you know what? I started out with Discus in a planted tank! And their doing great but never get less then 6 Discus or if you have the money get 8

Happy fish keeping




Thomas

[Cisco]

Hey Steve, you think he had a hand in the creation of this tank?
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.or...0&vol=3&id=141

I think this is what he meant!

Hi,

I am new to this forum and want to start a discus tank. Last year Ed13 posted this photo (please click on link).

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.or...0&vol=3&id=141

Does anyone know what type of filter this tank is using? It doesn't look like it has an HOB or canister, any ideas? I currently have a 40 gallon goldfish tank established now for 5 years. I just purchased a 55 gallon which I would like to have a low-tech (sp?) discus tank and would like to model my tank after this one. Your help would greatly be appreciated.

[scolley]

That is Jeff Senske's "Heiko's Lesson", probably the most celebrated planted discus tank of all time. Nothing like shooting for the best Cisco! This tank is reputed to be a tribute to Heiko Bleher's admonitions to Jeff in the sort of environments that would be suitable and successful with discus. Beautiful, isn't it?

Jeff lists his filters right at the bottom of the post. If you are not familiar with them - they're quite large. But it's a large tank, so it should be a simple thing to look them up at an on-line vendor, observe their capacity, and find a smaller capacity version for your 55. Most notable, IMO, is that he is using wet/dry, but does not specify which, so that would be a guess. I know Jeff loves Eheim canisters, so maybe his wet dry is Eheim too. But I bet not.

In conversation with Jeff he has told me of his strong preference to pull water out of the bottom of the tank and return it to the top for best circulation. And you can see an overflow in back left corner, with a return right next to it. So this tank is drilled for bulkhead, and likely has a sump - unusual for a planted tank - but that further implies that his wet/dry is a standard "sump" variety. And further, it implies that rather than running his canister Eheims from water in the tank, that they are filtering sump water. Because they cannot push water back up to the tank that is not being pushed down from the tank.

Hope that made sense. And hope that helps. Good luck.
Good luck.

[Cisco]

Hey Scolley! Thanks for your reply. I'm so glad that you recognize this tank and was happy to read your comments. Yes!! Beautiful tank!! Only having a 55 gallon, everything would be on a much smaller scale. No time to research the post further at this time, just wanted to say hi and thanks for all of your info. Will research further and hope you can help me figure this out some more. I am sooooooo taking my time with this tank. I figure I will have it totally together by springtime '09. Crossing my fingers!

[DiscusDude85]

The swords in that tank are AWESOME!. Mine are about the same size in my 60 gallon. If you are wanting to aquascape with several different plants i wouldnt suggest amazon swords. Mine take up so much space i constantly have to trim them. Next time im going to go with more low growing plants.



Joe

[Cisco]

Scolley,

When I first posted this, I was so mesmerized by the photos that I didn't realize that the tank's specs were listed if I had just scrolled down on the page. Duh!! Thanks so much for your input. I decided to go with a XP3 Rena canister and one sponge filter for now, also installing a pre-filter on my XP3. Reminding you that I am only running a 55 gallon as opposed to the massive 375g tank. Scolly, I don't really understand what you were talking about with it being "drilled" for a bulk head and with a sump. Can this system work with a 55 gallon tank? I would appreciate your input in how I can apply this concept to my tank.

[Roxanne]

[QUOTE=happygirl65;437021]..."I beleive that if special attention is paid to how much you feed, and if you watch them feed and remove uneaten food right away you can keep your parameters quite steady.
QUOTE]

Really? Well, why am I wasting all this time doing WATER CHANGES?

[scolley]

Cicso - I'm personally all for "going for it" after solid, well researched planning. And it looks like you are doing that (well done!), but sometimes in your research you hear things you might not want to hear. So...

I'd be happy to help with your interest in adapting Jeff's plumbing to a 55g. But that is long plumbing conversation and would be better in another thread or in PMs.

As to the capacity of an XP3 for a 55, that should be fine. I'm not really familiar with XP3s, but at 350 gph, that should be about right for a 55. The problem is trying to emulate "Heiko's Lesson". IMO that cannot remotely be done in a 55.

That tank had some tetras, and 10 sub/adult to adult sized discus in a lightly planted 375. So not including the tetras (minimal impact there in a tank that large), that's 1 smallish discus per 37.5 gallons of water. If you are planning as many as 2 discus you are already exceeding his stocking density. And I suspect you are. I would be.

On top of that he is running a wet/dry, arguably the best "traditional" form of bio filtration. The killer here is ammonia, or NH3, a major component of fish excrement. Ammonia appears to act as an algae growth trigger. Algae is always there. And if you are going to have a planted tank, you are going to have to provide your plants with nutrients. Generally those are the same nutrients that algae wants too. So if you don't want to grow both plants and algae, you want to discourage that algal growth. And the absolutely best way to do that is to minimize ammonia. Good biological filtration will help with that. Adding a wet/dry to target that specifically will help even more. But those measures pale next to having a stocking density of 1 discus per 37.5 gallons.

Part of what makes Jeff's tank so appealing is his use of open space - the whole visual "less is more" concept. Unfortunately that means having a lightly planted tank. I say unfortunate because plants love ammonia just as much as algae does. So having a heavily stocked planted tank is one of the best ways to cut back on algae - have the plants suck it up before it triggers significant algal growth. But Jeff has pulled off a lightly planted discus tank, with no algae evident. To do that I'm sure that wet/dry helps, but the big gun in that arsenal is his light stocking load.

So if you want to get anywhere near what Jeff has done - in your 55g Cisco - here are the decisions I think you have to make...

1) Do you want to explore a wet/dry to improve your chances?
2) Are you going to try a similar fish load? (Two fish is hard to do unless you buy a peaceful and established pair - and even that dynamic may change for the worse in a new tank)
3) Are you going to heavily plant the tank? (Which forces you to try for a completely different type of visual than Jeff achieved).

If having a tank like Jeff's was easy, you'd see many more of them. After all, it's only plants, fish, and some plumbing. Right? The fact is that achieving a tank like Jeff's is rare, and that's what makes it so special when you see one.

These problems are exactly what drew me to planted discus tanks in the first place. Discus can be difficult. Planted tanks can be even more so. An attractive planted tank is harder still. But a successful, algae free (or super low) artfully attractive planted tank with discus is a very hard thing to pull off IMO. And I - for one - am not there yet.

Welcome to the dark side of discus keeping!

[ashaysathe]

Mainly attributed to "too many unknowns for me" everytime I read planted tanks with discus, it gives me a feeling like trying to grow Sugarcane in Antartica.

Sometimes I wonder, when I see show quality planted tanks (no discredit to any of them, because what they have achieved is something I can't even dream of) I think their goal is, purely, to have a planted tank and fish are a added feature to this (sorry for using the word "feature" loosly here - but you get what I mean)

If there is any truth to this, then "planted discus tanks" are 2 different objectives - certainly not same as planted tanks or planted tanks with fish that demand lot less care than discus. Is it or is it not?

Putting this together, I think, when one decides to have a planted tank their should be a clear definition of the goal. As, "Master of Plants" , friend Steve said - there are handful of people who would be willing to use 37 gallon of water for 1 fish, I totally agree because I certainly will not be willing to do that.

But, few things come to mind after being in discus for past 6-8 months:
1. Starting with Discus and plants together - one needs to be reasonably proficient with one, more so with plants otherwise there are too many variables.
2. As said above - what are your goals in the tank: Sounds kinda weird but if you think about it with the amount of work and resources (read money) invested u need to be clear of that.

If you, say, have a 125g tank and have 20 discus not fully grown yet (exactly what I have), what is it I want to achieve? My first goal is to grow out discus and then move to plants. But then I am scared reading all these experts say "Hey.. you don't know what you don't know"

What it comes down to is you get plants they stay nice for 3-5 weeks, they begin to get algae and then you trash them. The other thing that can happen is, you are bombarding so many chemicals for the plants that your discus loose their potential/loose the fish OR both of the above. Bottom line "waste of money"

What we preach on this forum for discus is a beginner should start with 10-12 juv discus in a min of 55g tank from a "authentic" source in a BB tank, feed 4-6 times a day, do daily water changes, always QT new additions and you pretty much are gauranteed of the outcome.

Now, you add plants in this context. How do the dynamics of this equation change?

I know a little bit here and there, something like 3 watts of light per gallion of water, strong filteration to nuterlize the ammonia but from this point is where it gets hard to manage for me.

As ignorant I am on this topic, my worst fear is trying to grow plants having adverse effect on the fish given my main objective is to have nice discus but having them in a planted environment will be icing on the cake, so to speak.

What I am not sure of is, if, at all, there is any path of least resistance but I am willing to understand a systematic path of progression.

One would say go to planted forum and pick your brains there, but we already have spent so much energy here, can we go an extra mile without reinventing the wheel?

[Cisco]

Steve,

Thanks so much for your reply and the dose of reality. I guess I was dreaming, huh? I agree with Ashaysathe, I couldn't have put it better myself. It too gives me the feeling like trying to grow "Sugarcane in Antartica".

It looked so simple and I was thinking exactly what you said, "it's only plants, fish, and some plumbing", but you are right that it's not so simple, otherwise there would be more tanks like that. That's what makes this tank so special.

I have some hard questions to ask myself. And it all points to "how did I ever think that I could have a beautiful Discus show tank with a 55 gallon?" The bio load would be high with just the 6-8 discus, much less adding tank mates like tetras and algae eating fish, on top of that. I really didn't want a heavily planted tank because of the work involved, thus I probably will have algae issues. And...............I don't want to just "raise" or "breed" discus in a BB either. I don't have many choices here do I, and there is so many variables against me, especially with such a small tank?

You asked, "Are you going to try a similar fish load?" You then said "(Two fish is hard to do unless you buy a peaceful and established pair - and even that dynamic may change for the worse in a new tank)." Yes, I wouldn't mind purchasing and keeping an established pair only, that would work for me. But, what ARE the dynamics that could change for the worse? Just wondering.


Hmmm..........another goldfish tank is looking more and more attractive at this point.
Thanks again Steve, it's good to be back down to earth, I was out there in la, la land wasn't I? I look forward to your response.

Regards,
Cisco

[scolley]

Cicso - If you want to grow sugercane in Anticartica, IMO you ought to go for it! I certainly don't let conventional wisdom keep me from trying new things either. Just make sure that you know - up front - that it's going to be hard, expensive, and that your chances of success are diminished when compared to traditional sugarcane farming methods and locales.

All metaphors aside, you can definately have discus in a 55g planted tank. But their numbers will have to be reduced, say 4-6. And then you will probably still need to have it both heavily planted and/or heavily filtered, unless you are planning on doing lots of water changes.

I had a 75g planted tank - here's a link - that was arguably successful, until it sprung a leak that is. It had six sub adult discus and was not massively planted. But you will note that it is not as scarcely planted as Jeff Senske's tank. My filtration on that tank was about 500 gph, which is similar to your 350 gph number for a 55g. And you'd need to cut back on fish. And I had some powerful lights - to get the plants really growing. That growth was the key... counter intuitively, that growth is what kept the algae at bay by having the plants eagerly suck up that NH3.

IMO you need to get the biggest fish you can, to cut down on excess feeding. It's hard to grow out fish in a moderate to heavily plant tank. And you'll need a pretty large clean-up crew. But IMO you can, and should, do it.

[tacks]

Hi I am a plant person first, have a 150 tall, co2 injected. and tek lighting. I started with a 55 went to a 90 and then the 150. I belive doingplants is harder than keeping discus. You have to make your mindup that you cant grow out discus in a planted tank with out a lot of hard wk. So the easy part is to add adult discus and be able to change 75-100 percent of the water once a week. There is a nak to doing planted tanks and as you go along you acquire a feel for it, at least in my opinion. I would add that an xp3 has only 180 gph, you will see this on the side of the container in small print, so you may need more filitration. I belive you want to turn your water over 5-8 times. I hope some of this helps and it is great to try new things. Ed

[ashaysathe]

What we preach on this forum for discus is a beginner should start with 10-12 juv discus in a min of 55g tank from a "authentic" source in a BB tank, feed 4-6 times a day, do daily water changes, always QT new additions and you pretty much are gauranteed of the outcome.

Now, you add plants in this context. How do the dynamics of this equation change?

Steve,

I agree with your thoughts that if you want to go for, go for it and more so when an experienced hobbyists like yourself say it.

But, is there one answer to this question or its just trial and error?

[scolley]

I would add that an xp3 has only 180 gph, you will see this on the side of the container in small print, so you may need more filitration. I belive you want to turn your water over 5-8 times.

Good catch Ed! I would have sworn that I read 350 in an XP3 add somewhere, so I suppose rather than saying "yes" to an XP3, I guess I'm saying "yes' to 350 gph on a 55g.

But, is there one answer to this question or its just trial and error?

I'm not aware of a formula for discus and plants. Shucks, I'm not aware of a formula for just plants with a small - very limited - fish load. There are too many variables, which is why - in line with Ed's comment about the challenges of plants - I generally recommend that anyone that really wants to give plants and discus a shot, to spend at least 1 year cutting their teeth on plants first. I recommend putting discus on top of that as a prize after a year of lots of learning.

As for formulas there are lots and lots or resources out there for planted tanks that give good beginner info. But no hard and fast formulas that I'm aware of.