Heckel F1

[Patrick70]

Hi All,

Herewith attached my Heckel F1 n juv.


regards.

[Ed13]

Nice!
What heckel cross were F0?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Patrick,
Since we have a new section for heckel s I am going to move this there.

By the way... This fish looks like it has red turq in it... does it?

Thanks for sharing!

-al

[Apistomaster]

Hello Patrick,
I have basically the same questions as Ed13 and Brewmaster15.
This is a pretty discus but it appears to be the result of of considerable Turquoise in it's pedigree. An F1 Heckel is the result of the mating of two wild Heckels, so questions are raised about it's ancestory. It has many qualities of certain domestic strains, specifically HiFin Turquoise and a little Heckel.
Crosses are interesting but far from raising pure Heckels. There are even wild fish marked like this but with the more circular profiles typical of wild fish but they are not considered to be Heckels. Any info you could provde would be heipful.
What do you know about it's background?
Larry W

[ShinShin]

I don't necessarily see alot of turquois discus (red or otherewise) in this fish. Looking at the dorsal and anal fins, it suggests to me that the fish could be a natural hybrid by the continual black ring it displays. This black ring is usually apparent in the wild brown/blue discus, and it is well known that Blue discus and Heckles have overlapping ranges and will hybridize freqently.

Mat

[Ed13]

I don't necessarily see alot of turquois discus (red or otherewise) in this fish. Looking at the dorsal and anal fins, it suggests to me that the fish could be a natural hybrid by the continual black ring it displays. This black ring is usually apparent in the wild brown/blue discus, and it is well known that Blue discus and Heckles have overlapping ranges and will hybridize freqently.

Mat

I understand what you are saying and at first I also thought it was a natural occuring cross(I'm not really an expert with wilds), but he stated:

Hi All,

Herewith attached my Heckel F1 n juv.


regards.

It may be a misunderstanding on my part but this clears the doubt about them being wild. I guess all I wanted to know was if they are F1 then what were the F0. I thought about blues btw

[ShinShin]

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought this was a wild Heckle cross. Asian breeders have been successfully breeding Heckles for some time now. The reason that we don't see more of them is that there seems not to be a large profit margin in breeding them, as they are not in demand. This fish could have been (and probabally was) bred in captivity, maybe with another wild or domestic royal blue or similar type. This is just a guess and by no means not the only opinion. It would be nice for Patrick to give us some more info.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Heckels display the distinct black ring whenever the mood moves them. It is very
prominent in my suspected females when going through preliminary courtship behavior.
It shows up on almost all brooding female discus except some of the domestics that have had most of the melanocytes bred out of them. Not ever had any of those so I couldn't say for sure.
I don't think it is a very useful diagnostic characteristic.
Larry W

[brewmaster15]

Hi Pat,
Can you post some additional pictures? I'd really like to see the mate of that fish. More info on the pair would be really helpful as well as the conditions they were bred under.

Thanks!

-al

[ShinShin]

I will disagree with you on that one, Larry. I have never seen Heckles with distinct black rings like the one here on the photo, nor have I seen any to this extent on the many, many live Heckles I seen or photos I sifted through. The Heckles I own now don't. The two wild Heckle crosses that I have do.The wild browns (blues if you like) have this characteristic. Its not a matter of mood for them; it's simple there. Heckles do not have such a ring in my experience and/or observations.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

All I can say is that I have few that do The rest of them don't.
Even Heckels vary between individuals despite the fact that they are probably the most consistent in looks of all the discus.
You can see some in Aqualog SA Cichlids IV Discus and Scalare, especially the photos of a breeding pair but on some other examples shown.
Inductve reasoning fails sometimes. Example: Just because one has only seen black cows doesn't mean that all cows are black.

[brewmaster15]

I can see that ring on some of my heckels....not as pronounced...

But I am wondering... How many heckels have we seen that are breeding to know whether that Ring becomes more pronounced during Breeding?

Just thinking out loud.

-al

[Rod]

I very much doubt Patricks fish has any heckel blood what so ever. It looks all brown/blue to me although i don't think that is a fault in itself as it is an attractive fish. The heckel bar is not that uncommon to those among us who have a lot of experience with blue/ brown discus, it shows up by chance. I have many pics in my photo album of "heckels" that i bred that have no heckel blood in them.

[ShinShin]

There is a marked boldness of bars 1,5, and 9 and since this is a Malaysian discus where Heckle crosses have been produced commonly, there is a good chance of Heckle blood in this fish. How much is anyone's guess.

Rod, do you think that the pronounced bars you noted in your blue discus could have been throwback from a natural hybrid in the wild by previous generations of the fish you had or bred? I know you have a better grasp of genetics than most here do. I remember when teddyJ crossed a Heckle to a solid orange discus, he said that the Heckle bar did not appear in any of the offspring. They surely would have in future generations.

Mat

[Rod]

Rod, do you think that the pronounced bars you noted in your blue discus could have been throwback from a natural hybrid in the wild by previous generations of the fish you had or bred? I know you have a better grasp of genetics than most here do. I remember when teddyJ crossed a Heckle to a solid orange discus, he said that the Heckle bar did not appear in any of the offspring. They surely would have in future generations.

Mat

Yes Mat, It is possible there is some natural hybridization with heckel in my fish lines, but i have my own way out theories about why the blue/brown types have heckel bars from time to time. Basically i believe discus are a young group of cichlids and are still rapidly evolving, hence the huge color and body shape differences even from the same areas. The blue/brown types imo have evolved from heckel types as they spread out and found different niches to occupy. The reason the heckel bar mostly dissapeared is because it is an advantage for the discus in that new niche not to have a heightened bar, they somehow have an advantage over the heightened bar individuals so lost them over the generations. In the rio negro's tributies imo it is an advantage for the discus to have a heightened bar ,so it is still strongly evident. To sum up it is simply mother natures way of helping the fish (as a species) to survive.

Never had the pleasure of meeting or seeing teddy's fish setup, but the informatoin he gave you does not surprise me at all. Most likely the bar is controlled by several genes and the mateing of 2 discus carrying those genes is needed to make it show in some individuals. I agree that with continued breeding, heckel type bars would have appeared eventually.