To Biofilter or not? help me out here...

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Been thinking about something and want to get a discussion going on it...

Most members here use sponge filters or powerfilters to biologically remove ammonia and nitrites from their tanks... we use wc to remove Nitrates or plants in some cases.

In many hatcheries with drip systems and continuous flow systems...these may be used also .

I know of several breeders here and overseas that use no filtration, instead they just change water...I figured 100% 1-2X aday.. but what I found was some do as little as 30%? I suppose biological filtration is being carried in the water column in that case and probably on the tank walls.

To my conditioned mind the above situations don't seem like good conditions for discus to breed in, but they do and quite well by what I have heard and seen.

So heres my questions..

1) If you are doing water changes of 80% and higher daily... are you wasting time and money with biofilters?

2)Is there an inherent benefit in the non-bio filtration method... over using a bio filter.. what role does pH and alkalinity play in this..


I'm so intrigued that I have switched a tank or two of breeders to just water changes...I'll go with ro water and keep the pH acidic just in case.. in my mind... If I did that...any ammonia generated would be as the least harmful ammonium.. and without a biofilter present..that should stay as ammonium and not get converted to toxic nitrites....
I'll also go with 80- 100 % wc daily as I am a little anxious on this.


Anybody ever do this? thoughts on this etc.

Thanks,
al

[brewmaster15]

One benefit I can think of right off the bat is limited placed for parasite eggs and cysts to hide.. Filters suck these up and and may provide a reservoir for things like fluke eggs..

-al

[roclement]

Al you are an early poster! I think that as long as you have enough water movement in the tank to allow for gas exchange, and your tank is not overcrowded, or overfed, this no filter approach should work!

Your second point seems to be correct, in most cases, save some of our most excellent members! Filters become more of a place for problems to occur than a beneficial area for bacteria.

Please post your findings, you might just save us all a lot of money and work!

Rod

[pcsb23]

I know a lot of the Asian breeders in places like Malaysia don't use any bio filtraztion, but their water is soft and acidic, and I believe they do 100% w/c at least once a day.

I would be loathe to try it with water of a ph greater than 7.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

I'd be interested in your results.

Couple questions...........

1-Did you start with a sterile tank or just pull the sponges?

2-Are you testing Ammonia, nitrites & nitrates daily to see if they lower or raise with time? And what are the results so far?

Sounds like a constant drip system would work fine without bio-filtration since its basically constant water changing and the amount of ammonia, nitrite & nitrates would depend on how much the drip is.

Keep us posted.


I do however feel the expense of a sponge filter and air pump running it isnt that much compared to the time it takes to have to do more frequent WC's.

[brewmaster15]

Cage,
I did not sterilize the tanks....just wiped it down and pulled the filter.. and did as close to 100 % wc as I could do..

At this point we are at T= 30 mins in the experiment... since I just set this up 5 mins before I posted


I'll monitor ammonia and nitrites probably daily before the wc.

-al

ps.. Rod, mornings are my best time.

[kaceyo]

Al,
Are you going to do one or two 99% wc's a day? And what is the target pH in this tank? When raising fry artificially I noticed that overnight the total ammonia would reach levels most would consider dangerous, but due to the pH being a bit under neutral and the ammo never climbing higher than 2ppm it was never a problem. And that was with the tiniest of fry. I did find ways to keep the ammo from getting so high but still, I had no probs when it did.
Great experiment.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Kacey,
I'm going to start with ~100% 1x a day... and see what that works out to in a 29 gal for ammonia...I'm actually hoping to eventually have enough info to try less water changes..

oh and since RO water isn't exactly cheap to make...I'll be using the water change water over in another breeder located below it...provided the parameters are good.

-al

[Timbo]

hi brew

good luck with the experiment and it will require diligence with the w/c's. i think that it will work fine if not too many w/c's are missed or not missed for an extended period of time. i like having a sponge or two going all the time myself so that if i need to be away for a few days...bio-filtering is not a concern.

i am sure your plan will work, it just wouldnt work for me

[kaceyo]

Al,
I have a pair carrying fry that went freeswimming and attached yesterday. The filter in the tank was killed off by using formalin for fungus control of eggs too soon after a PP treatment, so it has been running with mechanical filter only for about three weeks now. Just prior to the once daily 30% wc's the ammo has been testing at 1ppm for the full 3 wks. I pulled the Hydro V yesterday and today, 24hrs later, it's still at only 1ppm, so I know there has been no bio-filtration going on.
The tank runs at a pH of 6.6 to 6.8 and is fed three very light meals a day. The fish seem to have had no negative effects, at least behaviorily or visually. So I think your experiment will be a big success. Now I'm thinking that if I had simply removed the filter 3 weeks ago and started doing larger wc's instead of leaving it in the tank to recycle, the water would have been much cleaner as there would have been no trapped detritus in the sponge filter.
If I did it on a larger scale I would want to have fully cycled backup filters in case something came up and I couldn't do the daily wc's.
Looking forward to your results and insight into this,

Kacey

[GrillMaster]

Nice test Al! I imagine you will have a pretty good idea with your amonia tests before the next water change.

It will be interesting to see if your 29G can make it 24 hours after the 99% with out any ammonia readings.

Mark

[April]

well..i have heard that some asian breeders with fry dont use filters..and i was told that the filter is what made the fry have problems with nitrates..and ph slides etc. for instance in my soft water..i had alot of problems raising fry and at 6 weeks i got the spiralling problem. when i had continuous water running in.. i was better off. thats what i was told..its the filter and the cycle was what was affecting them. some breeders in asia also leave the algae on the walls for helping fry with filtration.
ill be watching..and reading.
its the dedication thing though..with no filter..cant skip on wcs.

[brewmaster15]

I'm not sure about the not being able to skip water changes...In theory.. if the water is acidic..the ammonia generated should be ammonium.

When you cycle a tank with ammonia...theres a lag between ammonia and nitrite spikes.. Because as the ammonia increases theres food for bacteria that feed on it and make nitrite....when I have done this ammonia cycling , the lag is pretty pronounced... I'm guessing I would not see Nitrites for a while in this setup and as for the ammonium.. I know its less toxic than ammonia... I'll have to do some research to see how much less toxic ..Thats reallly key for how forgiving the wc regime can be.

Hmmm..
Should be fun.

-al

[Jason]

The breeders that I know that do not use filters including myself is for 2 reasons.

1)Heavy feeding and water changes is one of the major keys to getting the fry to market size quickly as possible, because of this the water in the tank must match the replacement water(wich is normaly tap in places like singapore) as closely as possible. In a tank with 1 or 2 adults and 100-300 fry being fed the amount of food required, if a sponge filter is used the end result of the nitrogen cycle can change the water parameters too much from the replacement water.

2)Alot of the strains nowadays just can't parent as well as the older or wild types, either they are too light in colour or just plain suck whatever the reason may be the fry will make a B-line to the dark vibrating sponge filter just about every time.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jason,
Thanks for the Imput here. Nice to see you online and posting

-al