To Biofilter or not? help me out here...

[April]

there..thats what i was trying to say..lol.What jason said. thats why my fry kept spiralling and dying . especially when their eating volume increased and their waste..

[D discus]

Hey Brew!
why not go with wipeing down the tank and 100% water change,this would be what they do in the Orient! Check incomming water for Nitrites! If OK , keep PH Acid (less chance of Ammonia!)(Discus Brief)(Did they ever restart in US?) DD

[kaceyo]

Quote "I'm guessing I would not see Nitrites for a while in this setup"
Al,
Why would nitrite (or nitrate) show up eventually in the system your planning? Keeping the sides and bottom of the tank wiped down and 100% w/c's should mean you'd never get these byproducts.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Dick,
Discus brief never started up again.

Kacey.. I meant if I did nothing...no water changes.. it would in theory take days before I see any nitrites..this happens after the ammonia starts to increase.

well... its been over a day.. and I am barely detecting any ammonia products....my pH has been 6.5 -6.6, temp 28.5 C. Fish look fine. just so I get a handle on how the ammonia rises in the tank...I think I will let this tank go another 24 hours without the water change.. I want to see how the ammonium increases in this tank and what effect , if any I can see in the pairs behavior and appearence.

If anyone has any articles on ammonia verses ammonium toxicity...please post them... I have read a thousand times that ammmonium is less toxic... but how much less so..I have no idea.


-al

[tpl*co]

Al,

Is there any water movement in this tank? Do you have an airstone in there?

Tina

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tina,
yes there is, sorry, forgot to mention it.. It has the hydrosponge assembly...without the sponge...so technically an airstone.

-al

[GrillMaster]

Al, this was pretty good readin. Scroll down to the chemistry of ammonia.

When doing ammonia tests, you are actually getting the readings on the ammonia molecules, and the ammonium ions. The hydroxyl ions that raise the alkalinity in a tank forms with the ammonium ions to get ammonia. Lower ph tanks dont have the numbers of hydroxyl ions therefore the ammonium ions dont have the hydroxyl ions to attatch to produce ammonia.

Then water temp comes into play. Higher temps will turm ammonia toxic faster than lower temps. Which is not an option of course.


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/ammonia.htm

Mark

[FishLover888]

Another thing to add: if you use some of the de-cholr products, it may affect your ammo readings.

[brewmaster15]

Mark,
thats an excellent article.. Thanks!!!

Tells me alot ...

basically... at 30 C... ammonia is 8X as toxic at pH 7.5 as it is at pH 6.5...It doesn't exactly say that but it implies it by the levels it says are safe for a fish.

-al

[brewmaster15]

Looking at that chart and my test kit.. It looks like I can have as much as 8 mg/l ammonia/ammonium at pH 6.5 and still be okay.. thats pretty much the highest reading on my kit.

-al

[Ardan]

Excellent experiment Al!
How are you getting the ph to 6.5? Adding anything? RO?
Not sure anymore what your well water ph is.

My ph is 7.5 usually, and KH 7, so to change the ph it takes RO + acids
I therefore have never tried your experiment although when I was treating oscars a long time ago, I added acid to keep the ph slightly acidic to counteract ammonia, seemed to help.??
keep us posted
Thanks
Ardan

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ardan,
I'm using Ro water which has a conductivity of about 50 Us.... I have had some minor fluctuation in pH... between 6.5 and 6.7 I have been adjusting with dilute hydrochloric acid .

been about 1 1/2 days nows... and I am reading maybe .25 mg/l TAN (Total ammonia)

-al

[kaceyo]

I've found the ammonia toxicity chart to be very reliable. There have been times I would have been freaking out about ammonia levels but after checking the chart realized I was in good shape. A real stress reducer. It's amazing how high levels can get without problems under the right conditions.

Kacey

[Greg Richardson]

Al. This is what we need. More people doing experiments sharing their results while getting feedback. Good for the hobby!
Thanks!

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Dick,


well... its been over a day.. and I am barely detecting any ammonia products....my pH has been 6.5 -6.6, temp 28.5 C. Fish look fine. just so I get a handle on how the ammonia rises in the tank...I think I will let this tank go another 24 hours without the water change.. I want to see how the ammonium increases in this tank and what effect , if any I can see in the pairs behavior and appearence.




-al

Did you bother to check the nitrite & nitrate readings?

Just wondering if there is still any nitrifying bacteria in the tank converting the ammonia? Possibly some in the sponge tube thats still operational in the tank?