To Biofilter or not? help me out here...

[brewmaster15]

Hi cage,
Since the tank wasn't sterilized I am sure theres probably some bacterias present... but I have been monitoring nitrites and its been 0...

Nitrates I have not monitored.

-al
ps..
I don't use lift tubes

[brewmaster15]

48 hours and no wc... Fish look fine.. act fine...

tank parameters..

Total ammonia .50ppm-1.0 ppm
nitrites 0 ppm
pH 6.6

so basically ammonia is creeping up at this point.


Acid water may not be necessary to raise discus...but it does have some benefits


-al

[GrillMaster]

This is actually an interesting topic!

I for one dont have a squeeky clean tank. The lights stay on for 12 hours each day and as a result has built up diatom algae here an there on the tank floor an walls.
With 2 sponges and an AC 500 on the old 55G tank, is all that filtration really necessary with 70% WC's each day? Hmmmmmm...

I might just join in on the experiment Al...

Mark

[Polar_Bear]

Al,
Out of curiosity, are you doing anything for water surface movement?

[brewmaster15]

Larry,
Alls thats going on in that tank for surface movement is the typical airflow from the hydro sponge cage.... no sponge on.

day 3..


pH 6.6
total ammonia... 0.5-1.0 mg/l
nitrites 0 mg/l
temp 28.5 C

Fish are still looking and acting fine....Breathing is normal.

I have not changed any water at this point.


Preliminary observations..I'm thinking having hydros in my breeders that are getting 50% wc a day is probably not necessary at all if I keep it acidic...

More observations to come as time goes by.

hth,
al

[Ryan]

On my 55 I only use two Hydros with the daily water changes. They are mainly good for picking up small particles in the water because I don't have any type of power or canister filters. But really I think the w/c are what keep the tank clean and the water quality good.

Al, maybe you'll save a ton of money on Hydro sponges?

[brewmaster15]

Day 4...

Ammonia still creeping up..

temp.. 28.5 C
pH.. 6.6
total ammonia.. 1.0 -1.5 mg/l
nitrites 0

Discus appetite is good, behavior is fine, look and act fine.

No water changes yet.... at this point I'm thinking I may start with wc, as the water is starting to look slightly cloudy... though the fish don't seem to mind one bit. maybe wait another day.

The gears are definetly turning here.

-al

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Still curious about nitrate levels and if they have been rising or falling.

The ammonia is supposed to be ok with a lower PH but are the nitrates less harmful with lower PH as well?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Cage,
If I start at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites....and the ammonia increases.....but I'm not seeing a nitrite increase...Nitrates should not be increasing.... as they come from Nitrite and the biofilter.



I just tested both my Ro water supply and the tank...Both are 5 ppm... thats what my well water is also. Thats using the Red sea nitrate 2 mini lab test.. The test I did was test #2...the more sensitive one of the two tests in that kit.

hth,
al

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Thanx Al .......... was just curious if there was still some lingering bacteria converting some of the ammonia to nitrites and then into nitrates and that may have been why the ammonia level was going up so slow giving you false readings of the amount of ammonia.

When the nitrifying bacteria is there and fully cycled .......... you never see nitrites either. Thats why i was wondering if you were still getting rising nitrates.

Thought maybe there was still some bacteria there to convert a small portion but just not enough to keep the ammonia at zero.

[brewmaster15]

Day 5...
still no water change...

pH ..creeped up a tad to 6.7...re-adjusted to 6.5
total ammonia... 2 mg/l
Nitrites 0

Fish look great...acting and breathing fine....eat well. really can't tell theres anything out of the ordinary with them.

al

[Alight]

Not sure I understand why you are not changing water? Without biofilter, the ammonia will rise at some constant rate. When and if a biofilter starts to form on the tank walls etc, nitrites will form.

Is the point to see how fast ammonia builds up? Or to see if a biofilter will form on bare glass?

I thought the original point was to see if just doing daily water changes would keep the water in good condition without any biofilter. If that's the case, water changes would have been being done.

Can you explain what is the reason for this experiment?

[kaceyo]

I could be mistaken but I think the point now is to gauge the effects of ammonium in a low pH tank on the health of the fish. How toxic is ammonium? I don't know, but this experiment might shed some light. We already know you can succeed in raising healthy discus without biofiltration if the pH is low enough and WC's are done.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Al,
Kacey is right...

Initially I was interested in the hows and whys of the breeders that keep their discus without biofilters... but then I realized that there was some basic info I lacked.

Its hard to understand the effects of Total ammonia in an acidic tank of discus until you have actually done an experiment where you maintain the pH and allow the Total ammonia to rise.. According to whats availible for literature and charts... That value thats safe for fish should be close to 8.. After 6 days of no water changes..I am a value of about 2-2.5 mg/l

Now that I know the rate the total ammonia rises in this 29 gal, with adult discus, and 2x a day feedings.... over a period of close to a week.. I can see and understand how some breeders I know can have no biofilters, and do water changes of 30 % every day or two. One of these breeders has water thats closer to pH 7.0

If the water is acidic... It seems you don't need a biofilter with the kinds of wc that most of us are doing or saying we are doing... I barely saw any total ammonia in that tank.. the first few days...and what I did see... would have been non-toxic ....SO if I am doing 30% a day as I do on my breeders.. There does not appear to be much of a point in a biofilter....provided my water is acidic. In theory you could easily maintain this system with small water changes and probably a larger one once a week.

Theres another benefit here as well... whether you believe Nitrates are an issue or not in the wellbeing of a fish.. Discus come s from waters with pretty much 0 nitrates..... I always thought there were 3 main ways to get rid of nitrates..
-water change
- plants
-resins

now I know 4 ways. Theres not any nitrates if theres no biofilter..If you interupt the cycle at ammonia and lock it all up as ammonium... thats it...

I thought the original point was to see if just doing daily water changes would keep the water in good condition without any biofilter. If that's the case, water changes would have been being done.

Now that I have some basic info...this is whats next on that tank... I'll do a large wc and repeat the experiment with 30% every day like I do on my other tanks and I'll monitor ammonia and nitrites.



I'm not advocating any one do these things...I am not sure what I will do with my observations at this time. I am hopeful that others will take a look at this and try it as well and share their observations .... I think theres some potentially interesting information to be learned here.

HTh,
al

[Marinemom]

So according to the forum page, there are four pages to this thread but I can only access the first three pages. Is there a reason for this? Let's see what happens when I post this and see if it does post because my first attempt to post this failed. I wonder if it will be on page three or four and if it is on page four if I can access this or not.

As far as the topic for this thread I think it is a very interesting topic and experiment. Please keep us updated as to the progress and results of this experiment.

Diane