Heckels?

[tacks]

Okay I hope I dont seem stupid here but I am new to discus so new I dont have any yet but am working on it. my question is are Heckels just a breed of Wilds and Blues, Greens Etc. are also a type of Wilds. I am asking because it seems here that I am reading that Heckels seem a little tricky to take care. Most comments seem that they hide alot or are all Wilds this way. Thanks I hope I made my self clear Ed

[Apistomaster]

Heckels are the "original", first named and discovered species of discus found primarily in the Rio Negro, a special blackwater environment. They are all wild. caught and not bred often in captivity because they are harder to spawn.

Heckels are somewhat more shy than the other wild type discus but they do become tame after a period of acclimation and good health.

There are several things about them that sets them apart from the other wild discus. Check through the threads so far to get an idea about why some of us are trying to figure out what it is that might help us figure out what it is going to take to breed them. They are thought to be the evolutionary source of all other wild discus at this time.

I would add that does not imply they are a more "primitive" species. They have merely continued their evolution to fill the unique environments in which they occur.

They have less in common with domestics than the other wild discus because they haven't been bred as much and rarely but occassionally have bred with other discus. Those lines have invariably fizzled out at most by the F4 gen.
Larry Waybright

[tacks]

thank you ed

[ShinShin]

Heckles are being spawned Heckle x Heckle, and Heckle x domestic. They are just not being spawned in North American or European tanks with any frequency, and rarely still by us hobbyists. Asian breeders have had success breeding them. I have seen a tankful (at least 75 pieces) of wild Heckle x wild Heckle domestically spawned juveniles freshly imported from Asia 5-6 yrs. ago. Asian bred Heckle crosses were readily available from certain breeders as well during the same time frame I saw the 100% Heckles. Ray Kosaka had two Heckle crosses available often. Dennis Hardenburger, a former member here, purchased and spawned some of these Heckle crosses from Ray. You can read about it here if you search for it. Asian breeders were finding little interest in their crosses, so the profit margin was not there to motivate them to produce more.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

We hear that Heckels are bred on a fairly regular basis in SE Asia but I have seen little evidence or documentation that this is so. They are accutely aware of the value of pure bred Heckels in the world market so one has to wonder why they have not capitalized on it.

I remain skeptical.
Larry Waybright

[ShinShin]

Remain skeptical, then if you must. That doesn't change what is. My phone conversations with Ray Kosaka and email communications with Shaifullah Yeng (Penang Discus) indicate otherwise. Like I said, Ray had a blue base and a red base Heckle cross routinely on his availabilty list. About 6-8 yeras ago several Asian discus sites offered Heckle x Heckle crosses as well as several other Heckle/domestic crosses available. One cross was a Heckle x Golden cross. The pics of this discus showed what appeared to be a golden type discus with a black Heckle bar resembling an Ica (only gold not red). Both Ray and Yeng said there was not much interest in these crosses, meaning no profit. Many people find the Heckle's bars obtrusive and don't find Heckles very attractive. Truth be told, I don't think they are the most attractive discus, either, not even if compared to only other wild discus.

Mat

[Ed13]

http://http://forum.simplydiscus.com...ad.php?t=54108
pics 9-11 seem like heckel crosses to me!

[Polar_Bear]

Tacks,
Larry and Mat's discussion aside, I would urge you to start with domestic discus in any case. Far better prepared for your water parameters, especially if you can find a local breeder. Start with "easier" strains first and then go for the more difficult to keep ones is my best advice.

btw Mat it is spelled Heckel, for Symphysodon discus Heckel, as Larry said Johann Jakob Heckel being the first to return a discus for taxonomic identification. If recent events are to be believed S. discus and S. aequifasciatus are genetically identical, so will probably both be relegated to being Symphysodon discus. Like most of the people who have raised these fish, I'm not quite ready to buy into this yet, but time will tell I guess.

[ShinShin]

PB,

Yes, I know the history and know how it is correctly spelled, yet I mispell it 99% of the time.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mat,
I take that you are not ready to buy into H. Bleher's assertion that the Symphysodon discus Heckel is a separate reproductively isolated species?

Maybe Vol II will contain more on this subject.

I would never argue the point that Heckels are the most beautiful of the wild discus. I actually prefer the appearance of very high quality blue and greens but I have been there and done that and am trying to help understand or should I say, trying to learn how they can be bred in captivity.
If we can do that it would open an as of yet untapped source for the development of domestic Heckel strains that can be then selectively bred to produce new domestic forms. Some are sure to please the most jaded discus fancier.

Larry Waybright

[ShinShin]

Larry,

What I am saying is that Asian breeders had been breeding Heckels for some time and that they do not do so as much now because there is no demand.

I bought "Bleher's Discus" vol 1 from the author himself last summer and I am finding it very interesting. I have always suspected diet and age were two areas mistakes were being made by those of us that attempted to breed S.discus.The extremely low conductivity of the water was a given to me, and most likely all others as well. At this point, I am not willing to believe that we have to expose Heckels to the extremes mentioned in other threads regarding high/low waters, starvation, etc.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mat,

I agree with you about the deprivations cited but then that is a relative thing. Mild deviations from routine care may prove useful as has been shown in breeding many of the Hypancistrus species.
Perhaps constant routine care will prove sufficient and the real key is having a compatible pair of the correct age. I prefer that scenario myself.

Larry W.

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear all, and a speciall note to Mat's comments,

this is Heiko Bleher and I read your thread on Heckel discus in Asia and breeding of Heckel discus in Asia.

First of all thank you Mat, and I appreciate that you not only bought my book, but also went through my extensive work of nutrition of the wild discus in nature (which in itself was many years of work, research,and timeless observations above and below water etc., etc.).

But what you have definately wrong, as almost all people in Asia, is that Heckel discus are breed successfully in Asia. There has no real Heckel discus (Symphysodon discus) ever been successfully breed in Asia to my knowlefge and seeing, except for many of the so called Heckel cross'. Since I introduced Heckel cross from Schmidt-Focke and Homann to Asian breeders in the 1970s and 1980s, they have been breeding this hybrid, on and off. But NEVER a single S. discus with a S. discus.

The problem in Asia is, still today in most of the countries, that no one really knows what a real Heckel discus (S. discus) is, or looks like. They are totally fixed to tank breed varieties, almost everywhere. And most breeders and discus keepers believe a discus with a center bar is a Heckel discus (and in most of the Asian publcations it is shown and mentioned as such). I have never seen a single S. discus x S. discus breeding anywhere (at more than 300 breeders, from India, across Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, Korea, to Taiwan), only Heckel cross discus, that is a cross of a Heckel discus (S. discus) with a blue discus (S. haraldi). Even recently, in November/December of 2006, when I was invited for lectures on discus and to Judge in Malaysia (AQUAFAIR 2006) and in Singapore (World Discus Championships) and visted more than 50 breeders again in both counntries, no one had a single S. discus anywhere...
But all those which had a Heckel cross, they thought it was a Heckel discus...

Sorry but these are facts, as much as the facts that the real Pterophyllum altum from upper Orinoco (its type locality) has never been breed in captivity...

It is as Larry said earlier, so much mis-information out there, that it sometimes stinks (sorry, but I find no other word...). That is why I try my best to pass on only correct information and not to look to the fact which most do, that is good fo my pocket...

Keep that in mind and verify what I tell you, read my book again and wait for volume 2, as those facts - throughout Asia - are well explained in it.

And no worries to keep real Heckels in the water you mention, but if you really want to be successful in breeding real Heckels as Alberto, than you must give it the water they are used to and need for youngs to grow up.
That also is a fact.

Best regards to all of you,

Heiko

[Apistomaster]

I don't suggest that Heckels be subjected to extreme neglect then reconditioned in an attempt to induce spawning. I do think that there is such a thing as improving the conditions above the ordinary, timed to coincide with their breeding period.

This is similar to a phenomenon Apistogramma breeders are familiar with. It is very often the case that newly imported Apistogrammas spawn soon after recovering from the stress of capture and importation.

That is not an endorsement on my part to deprive Heckels to the brink of death and then reconditioned just to induce breeding. A very much milder regime would surely be the wiser course of action.

Larry W

[Martinphillip03]

Well I guess I am buying another Discus book

Marty