Heckels?

[brewmaster15]

From my introduction to this forum section..

Our purpose is to build an informational database on the requirements of wild Heckels and their biology. It is hoped that with such a knowledge base hobbyists and breeders may be able to captive breed Symphysodon discus in a consistent manner.

Without the above quoted accomplishments... none of what we are discussing here with regards to genetics and "pure" stock is even possible.

Hth,
al

[Darren's Discus]

Hi Guys,
quite a debate you have going on here.I am not nor confess to be a heckel expert have kept them over the years but never had any success. I to have read of heckel success and beleive it would be naieve to think that many people hav'nt had success with these fish there are a lot of people out there doing it for themselves and don't report it back in the late 70s and early 80s I remember a great discus breeder in australia his name was joe isencob he was breeding fish i had never seen before at that time he also had heckels not shure if he had any success with them or not what i'm saying is I cant beleive that the heckel has been around as long as it has and there has'nt been more succesful breeding ,we can put a man on the moon(or did we?) but we can't breed heckels I'm with shin on this one Asian breeders have been succesful in this area but due to there lack of commercial viability have not continued .If ford brings out a car that does'nt sell would you keep manufacturing it ! Please look at the post Dan from gulfcoast placed a few months ago titled wilds wilds wilds there are imo
some beautiful heckels there but are they wilds ?I expect not if you look at the vibrant colours and the straitions you would have to question there origin,
Dan please don't take offense to these comments they are only here for discussion purposes and i would love to own some of them !

cheers

[ShinShin]

Dave,

I have to agree with Al. It may be somebody elses idea to provide a "pure" Heckel domestic breeding pool, but until those more qualified to actually determine the discus genetic mess, and confirm exactly how many species we are dealing with (and exactly what they are) I don't see where this is possible. My goal is and has been to breed Heckel discus. It may or may not be anyone else's goal to do more. Until the species mess is determined by science, I don't see how more can be achieved. I feel confident that my current Heckels are just that - S.discus. If they do spawn, I will consider them F1. Since these were captured in the wild, in a region where there is an overlap with blue discus, can there be a cross somewhere in the lineage? Perhaps yes, perhas no. Or, maybe these discus were captured far from the overlapping range.

Mat

[raglanroad]

Edited Later:
Al,
I quote from a headline on the forum

Our ultimate goal is that of establishing a captive breeding program.

Perhaps my confusion over your statements stems from misunderstanding that. It must mean something different than what I comprehend. If you use latin binomials regarding your efforts, it signals the use of true specimens of the species named, I would think. "Captive breeding program" denotes an organized effort to me. running and stumbling is one thing. backpeddling till one pases oneself in reverse last tuesday is another. : )
End edit.

We are speaking of two or three different fields here, and I think Heiko addresses this situation well, as he can span at least 3 fields in his works.
You mention the hobbyists' field.
We have the collectors' field.
And we have the scientists' field.

The standards and even meanings can be different in the different fields.
I have fish from Oliver. I consider him to be expert in several areas, and just as importantly, reputable. So for any hobbyist considerations, I have fish that I can ask Oliver about: are they wild caught Orinoco angelfish ?

I can trust his answer. this satisfies hobbyist goals: the word of an authority on the subject, and who has a great reputation.

Mat, here's the situation on altums. Oliver tells me that he used to have a large supply of locally bred Linke line angels for sale, as many as wanted. Two local Quebec breeders were around. Horst Linke's line was productive.

If I were not selective, I could buy some of those how-many-generation-hand me-down-suspect fish, and call them Pterophyllum altum.If I were not selective.

But if I were, I would call them ALTUM TYPE ANGELS, not Pterophyllum altum, just to be more correct by being less wrong. These fish, to me, are provisionally not included in Pterophyllum altum. Some of our club members have the Linke fish. Any breeding of them will be a great source of excitement, and can further our studies, but those offspring will be categorized separately by me, cause I'm doing records keeping for the club until someone else does. In Poland they have had ALTUMISH Linke-ish Angelfish that sold for pennies U.S.

If I call scientific advances irrelevant to my hobbyist goals, I make my statements about Pterophyllum altum unfalsifiable. Everyone knows I'm not talking science, so my sesquipedalian mention of "Pterophyllum altum " could be fairly disregarded by those discussing it on the science level.

As to the collectors' field of work, we have to wait for biologist-
supervised collected samples to be analysed. For DNA work, that's the recommended route. At the current sophistication of such studies, they don't want LFS specimens. No catch coming in from origin unknown is really good these days. As well, if properly collected, other aspects might eventually be studied, such as what the relations are amongst species extant and extinct, and many others such as the reasons for changes in the discus ancestral forms over the years.

The scientists' field:
If I depend on Axelrod days' science understanding, as a hobbyist ( and so many fish were found and described ), I'm dealing with specimens described by such poor method that the description is almost void of meaning, as well as being of uncertain origin.

I can point out his hobby-level appraisal of the Heavenly Paradox Angel and you can actually laugh, at least you have to get a chuckle. The "dark gene" angel he was looking at was really sick, and had half the anal fin gone, and much of the caudal. So we are told that this is a "Moorish Idol !" appearance fish ( exclamation mark his ).


He mentions his favourites, and says he was hunting for blue headed discus...

If this information era is the source of angelfish hobbyist background understanding, it is outdated, as are those works built on some of Axelrod's contributions.

and "dead from an aquarium" is not much better for capture locale info; at least it's accurate though !

: )

Dave

[raglanroad]

I'll ask 66north ,my genetics info guide, for his thought on this subject.I already borrow some of his words and wreck the meaning so why not ?

He has a knack for presenting point counter-point and references on the science level matters.

[brewmaster15]

Dave,
Your altum project is a year or 2 old now right? Just as matter of back reference here, How many hobbyists have signed onto to your altum project and how many agree with your described criterias here?

Have you identified the Type specimen that you will test against for your altums? who collected it and documented its locale beyound doubt? Where is this Specimen currently? and is it acceptably agreed on as a type specimen by the scientific community?


Have you or any of those involved actually given all this a dry run by obtaining genetic samples of the Linke Altums in question, as well as your own "wild" altums and have had them tested in the manner you describe here? Have you tested them genetically to see how much the altums differ genetically from scalare?

Lastly, have any of those involved gotten past the initial step of having bred altums and have f1s that can be genetically tested.

Dave, my background is Biological Science and I use it everyday in my hobby. I am not questioning the science involved in your posts here..I understand it very very well, Though I don't think that at this point in time theres enough established "facts" to use genetics...latter for sure... How much latter? that depends on matters that you , I and all else here have no control of, IMO. Our role can only be to learn what it takes to breed them as that falls in our practical realm of experience, perhaps testing them after that if all necessary leg work has been done by the scientific community....which at this point it has not, IMO.

Hth,
al

[Apistomaster]

I think that Heiko Bleher's work as a collector, that of his taxonomic work, and that of his molecular geneticist consultants is putting us on the right track to be able to soon be able to be sure that we will know the difference whether we are breeding well defined true Heckels or just Heckel like phenotypes.

It is still a work in progress and for some time it will be a matter of subjective opinion whether not Heckels are being bred or just facsimiles. There really are non-heckels that by their appearance appear to be Heckels but are not in fact Heckels.

If the the fish are being bred that look like Heckels with relative ease, then those particular fish are going to remain to be suspect to me. Heckels, sensu stricto, are not easily bred.

I do think that Heiko's assertion than the S. discus has only been successfully bred a handful of times to date will prove to be true.
Molecular DNA work will eventually be able to distinguish differences that the eye can not regardless of whether the material is wild collected or aquarium specimens.

Reaching a consensus among aquarists will take time as we are an opinionated lot.

Larry Waybright

[brewmaster15]

Hi Larry,

There really are non-heckels that by their appearance appear to be Heckels but are not in fact Heckels.

What proof is there of this?
I think if we make blanket statements like this, there should be proof, don't you?
Its generally accepted that genotype dictates phenotype . A heckel is a heckel because a heckel has the genes to make it look a heckel.

If the the fish are being bred that look like Heckels with relative ease, then those particular fish are going to remain to be suspect to me. Heckels, sensu stricto, are not easily bred.

Thats a very subjective thing to say.,,If Mat breeds his heckels or I breed mine with ease...why does that mean they are probably not heckels?

Molecular DNA work will eventually be able to distinguish differences that the eye can not regardless of whether the material is wild collected or aquarium specimens.

DNA and genetics is everywhere these days ..and everyone has come to use these phrases in everyday life...which is great... But The Amazon is an immense place, with many rivers.. and many populations...Its not like taking a swab from everyone in a small town and finding a killer... Its far more complex a scenario. I think DNA is a valuable tool but its only as good as its starting materials.

Take a swab of your mouth and send it to a ACME mail order lab and you too can know if your family lineage is.....who knows...maybe you have royalty in your blood.......TV and magazines make it sound so simple....It isn't like that at all.


jmo,
al

[raglanroad]

Al, I'm a bad records keeper and wish someone else would like to do that job. For your background information records, response to my club has been rather like this:

Scorned by one or two for maybe one day as "moot point". Nobody's breeding these but for Linke.

By day 3 or 10 or something we had the equivalent of a major leaguer in the discus world. We also have members from other countries than in NA. quite a few of our nicest fish are in Singapore.
We have a specialist in stunning domestic discus from there.
We don't see enough of pics and video or opinion, as most of the guys seem so humble and are focussed on producing beautiful planted tanks with fish that seem comfortable and gorgeous.

Lots of people joined and stated the fish they had or were hoping to get during the year I worked that end. Maybe 50. My pc has only been replaced this month and my paperwork is horrendous. I have to sharpen up if any of our members has spawns ! Meanwhile we have good knowledge of who has what, amongst us.
We know only that most of our fish are from Mark Denaro or Mark R or Oliver or Ruinemans, amazon Imports, and so on, and most exports are done through Colombia. So we have pet trade fish. Makes little difference whether from
Montreal or Frankfurt, as Ed would say.
Ed is a member too.

The purpose of the club was immediately altered to include one of scanning for evidence and authoritative opinions for support for the hobbyist having massive mortality going on.

Now that we have members with fish old enough to be considered well into spawning age, there had been mainly some pairing behaviours and not that much more.

As to getting Linke fish genetics done, that's certainly not on the front burner ! His fish were reportedly from near Puertoayacucho, as far as good translation from perhaps the broken local language used by Linke translations affords, so they are not altum anyway according to Heiko.

4 associates or members of the club claim spawnings, from the early 80's and early 90's.

as to numbers that adhere to my thinking, they probably number in the low zero's .

Al, as you indicate, the collection leg work for the modern analysis of specimens such as comparing holotype locale DNA ( as per Heiko's summations ) has not been covered much, to hobbyist knowledge, but it has been very well started already ! Because the work may take literally only a very few years or so to see results, we have to be patient I think and wait before I can say " This is a specimen of Pterophyllum altum" and by custom, use italics.

I am hoping Heiko elaborates on a couple of the difficulties with old previously collected specimens, in various regards.

Dave

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Dave,
Thats pretty much along the lines of what I thought.

As to getting Linke fish genetics done, that's certainly not on the front burner ! His fish were reportedly from near Puertoayacucho, as far as good translation from perhaps the broken local language used by Linke translations affords, so they are not altum anyway according to Heiko

not being well versed in all the acceptible Altum sites...It seems to me that one should genetically compare the Linke "altums" to your wilds..If not anything else ...you can use it as negative standard should it not be a real "altum"


Where does your group stand on this area I was asking about?...

Have you identified the Type specimen that you will test against for your altums? who collected it and documented its locale beyound doubt? Where is this Specimen currently? and is it acceptably agreed on as a type specimen by the scientific community?


Have you or any of those involved actually given all this a dry run by obtaining genetic samples of the Linke Altums in question, as well as your own "wild" altums and have had them tested in the manner you describe here? Have you tested them genetically to see how much the altums differ genetically from scalare?

Thanks,
al

[raglanroad]

Thanks Dave,
Thats pretty much along the lines of what I thought.

not being well versed in all the acceptible Altum sites...It seems to me that one should genetically compare the Linke "altums" to your wilds..If not anything else ...you can use it as negative standard should it not be a real "altum"


Where does your group stand on this area I was asking about?...


Thanks,
al

No, Al. this is about non-inclusion. First we need the collection locale holotype DNA, then we compare other fish to what Heiko or any scientist shows to be fact.

It is up to the claimant ( Linke or anyone who cares to forward Linke fish as examples of anything) to do testing on them. If wealthier, I would still not go test Linke fish. There are more important fish to test : WILD FISH. Although Linke gives description of collection locale for his wild spawners. and is recognized as a collector qualified to supply scientific study, I believe. So I'd say his word and your certificates of ownership are your evidences in that case.

However, our group does not have an opinion that I am aware of. Should it have a group opinion ?

Al we will be seeing collections of multiple samples per species location if I understand method correctly.

Later Edit:Who will present such various holotype locale specimens for analysis ?
I wonder if Heiko might consider giving it more increased priority if we bug him ?

: ) I also would be most greatful if Heiko corrected me here or there on the misinterpretations or fallacies about this genetics and collecting subject that I have gathered so far.

This is a learning experience for me that can only be applied after I learn, so it's a work in progress. It's difficult for me to be too definite about "ruled out" when learning is still in progress, even as to terminology.

Dave

Edit: P.S.

Another astounding thing about the internet media is that lowly hobbyists with an idea and inquisitive nature can come into contact with the most accomplished specialists in the world. this is happening. Later Edit:To get real information direct is incredible. thank you for the opportunity provided, Al !

[brewmaster15]

Dave,
So to recap...basically.. There is no type specimen yet, and no one has tested any of your groups altums or linkes altums yet for what ever reason. .No one even knows what the genetic profile of an altum should be? or if the science is there to accurately distinguish a true "altum" ( "true altum" to be determined still?) from scalare or hybrid...

and yet.. this is the criteria that should be used to determine altums..or heckels as case here really is?

That in a nut shell is my problem with this whole line of reasoning. In theory it sounds like good science...In application its decades if ever from being a reality. Wish I could tell you otherwise...but I really think you are misleading yourselves if you think Genetics is going solve this mess in the next few years or anytime soon.

But thats just my opinion and we all entitled them.

take care,
al
BTW...I still think you should test Linkes instead of automatically ruling them out without a test...thats the scientific way to go at this. If you are going to genetically test fish...one more sample will not cost much more, yet the info could be extremely valuable.

[raglanroad]

Al,

Linke fish are of interest. they have not been ruled out as you suggest. they have been provisionally not included, by me, for use in club records as Pterophyllum altum if somebody breeds them. You may think that its wordplay or not but that's it. Not excluded. anyone who wants to use the club to present them as Pterophyllum altum associated with club membership other than who agrees wth that summation, can quit, kick me out, or keep the records themselves. I'll keep my own anyway. It's an arbitrary move, as most are in some way. I think the Linke altums are visibly different from wild Orinoco angelfish populations. JMO.

But I would think the most important is to establish what genetics are in wild fish : )

[brewmaster15]

Dave,

As to getting Linke fish genetics done, that's certainly not on the front burner ! His fish were reportedly from near Puertoayacucho, as far as good translation from perhaps the broken local language used by Linke translations affords, so they are not altum anyway according to Heiko.

ut I would think the most important is to establish what genetics are in wild fish : )

That sounds like ruling them out to me...but be that as it may...

take care,
al

[raglanroad]

Al, perhaps it is ruling them out of top position for expenditure of resources.
provisionally. : ) but not positively excluded from either being Pterophyllum altum or from being top priority for investigation at some later date. If they prove genetically that these originated from Pterophyllum altum only, then they would of course be top priority to study as to Linke's method. That's been done before by many though, by study of his book. The inside story (if there is more), such as the specifics of how the tank bred series was produced by which matings and so on I do not know.