Heckels?

[raglanroad]

The Altum Breeders' Club account has been opened at BOLD for our specimen samples. Dig out your Freezie Pops, guys.

[raglanroad]

this stuff is amazing. check out the tutorials. they do everything for you ! create trees, organize images, compare DNA sequences . it's like a DNA multimedia player. security is good, and you can allow access to any member, limited or unlimited access.

TWO THUMBS UP !

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,
Unless I am wrong, I think in order for the technology to work here, they still need a code to compare the bar code of the samples you send in....so you still need that type specimen from the wild as a reference.

I Understand the science behind it well. Its a young technology in application though, and to be honest, for as much potential it has...many feel that it may have its problems too. Time will tell how accurate it will prove itself.

From the Links you posted.... This referenced one....
http://phe.rockefeller.edu/barcode/d...ec4th_2004.pdf

Raises some concerns that unfortunately may be applicable to the wild discus forms , possibly to your altums....particularly the concerns on the potential to not be specific enough to tell apart hybrids and recently diverged species.

In any case, At The price of what they are charging it sounds well worth it for the trial...but I would at this point accept the results cautiously. Do you know the source of specimen that they have cataloged from the wild for your altums and scalare?

I look forward to seeing what they come up with though

-al

[raglanroad]

Al, there are no entries for any angels. So any one of us can be the first in the world, if we apply as loose standards as some recent reviews have.
I notice also for discus, tarzoo is not existent.

As to any problems over determination using this system, it's a fact to me that all these tests provide only differing views of the reality, never reality. And the different tests and analyses can be used to examine different aspects such as the more ancient time frame or more recent, historically.

We still need wilds genetics to compare to. I wonder if any of the already completed studies contain info on the fragment in question. In any case. we need the wild DNA.

But it does seem possible very soon to determine if scalare has been mixed in with tank bred altum. That is of prime importance. No fraud for the base breeding stock. Suppose it turns out that the majority of those involved agree that Pterophyllum is only one species. Then we still are interested in the variant or the subspecies or population that we know as altum, as well as Heiko's altum, not those other seemingly much easier-to-breed fish !

Others can turn out combtails or pearlscale hybrids, no problem. I think that breeders would always need a base stock to work from and to go back to sometimes..
D

[raglanroad]

For the meantime, until a responsibly collected DNA sampling is done for altum, we can be satisfied at one level by testing any altum from reliable sources such Oliver's or your own imports, Al.

It might not be an answer to finer degree questions, but it will be very interesting. At least then we can compare against scalare and leopoldi, and eventually against altum from the holotype locale.

I can also imagine a surprise if amongst our own altumish fish we have, let's say, 3 or 4 species !

D

[fusQer]

hey guys i recently acquired 5 4" wild heckels (rio negro), not necessarily intending to breed them but just because i like the way they look. but after seeing these threads i would love to contribute to any breeding research. is there some post somewhere or a url somewhere documenting what has been tried or what hasnt? mine are in a 29g barebottom right now in RO water 4-5 degrees GH, all sides of the tank are painted but the front and i have some black water extract but i havent put that in yet. the fish eat voraciously, right out of my hand too.

[Apistomaster]

fusquer,
It is that lack of "How toBreed Heckels" that we are trying to resolve.

Really only a few references and photos in the literature but not much in the way of an expose' article with photos explaining all that went into doing the deed.

Most of what we know boils down to three things.
1. They spawn like other discus.
2. A large soft acid blackwater setup is indicated by the obsrvations made in the wild
3, They are extremely difficult to induce breeding in captivity.