Spawning Heckle Question

[William Palumbo]

Hi fellow Heckelers,

I know that there are two schools of thought on whether Heckles...true Heckles, have ever been bred in captivity. Which raises a question that I have had for awhile about the topic. Many years ago, maybe the late '80s, I remember a hobbyist named David Dollman, who lives in my state,of Illinois, in a Chicago suburb, who supposedly bred two wild Heckles together. He was one of the hobbyist in Wattleys'" Discus for the perfectionist book". Also, from what I have heard, is that Wattey himself wanted to, and did, trade some of his fish for the F1 Dollman Heckles,and also getting himself into the above mentioned Wattley book for doing so. Does anyone remember this?, and if so, were they actually two pure Heckles? As far as I knew at the time, it was NOT a Heckle cross.
Bill

[Apistomaster]

I do remember seeng ads by Wattley in old TFH issues when in was in the small sized format listing Heckels for only $16.00.

[Apistomaster]

I believe Heckels have been spawned but only rarely over the years and that we haven't had enough success yet to establish an aquarium strain that might be easier to work with than the current wild stock we are keeping.

If I believed Heckels have never been bred I would not be as interested in accomplishing it, whether by myself or anyone else who is trying.

There are some fish that have just never bred in captivity but fortunately Heckels aren't one of them.

Larry W.

[Ed13]

Hi fellow Heckelers,

I know that there are two schools of thought on whether Heckles...true Heckles, have ever been bred in captivity. Which raises a question that I have had for awhile about the topic. Many years ago, maybe the late '80s, I remember a hobbyist named David Dollman, who lives in my state,of Illinois, in a Chicago suburb, who supposedly bred two wild Heckles together. He was one of the hobbyist in Wattleys'" Discus for the perfectionist book". Also, from what I have heard, is that Wattey himself wanted to, and did, trade some of his fish for the F1 Dollman Heckles,and also getting himself into the above mentioned Wattley book for doing so. Does anyone remember this?, and if so, were they actually two pure Heckles? As far as I knew at the time, it was NOT a Heckle cross.
Bill

Heckels have been spawned together in captivity, anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying or blind(metaphorically speaking) the only controversy is if they have been spawned with effortless succes and/or in large quantities as a part of a breeding program!
Altum Angels are the ones that have never been spawned in captivity!???

[Apistomaster]

Good response Ed, actually I think more people are trying to breed Altums than Heckels but in the end similar debates exist:
1.Routinely done in SE Asia.
2.The controversial H. Linke strain. (The purity of the line is in doubt.)
3. Isolated reports as we have with Heckels. (Azuma, TFH published his Altum account.)
At least that is what I have been able to figure out.

I have trouble with any claim that asserts neither species has been bred in captivity.
If I had more room to accomodate them I would like to ge some very fine wild RSG Discus to kill time with while I hope my Heckels spawn some day.
What I have come to realize is that many of the folks who have been defenders of the proposition Heckels are bred routinely in the Far East have yet to even bred any discus let alone ANY wild fish. Therefore their authoritive credentials are rather insubstantial.
True discus fanatics can never have enough discus. What is unfortunate is that the marketplace may not support the purchase of Discus that have to grow to near maturity before they show their colors.
Larry W

[BC Mosaic]

True discus fanatics can never have enough discus. What is unfortunate is that the marketplace may not support the purchase of Discus that have to grow to near maturity before they show their colors.
Larry W

I'm sure/hoping that there are ways around this issue - PR/education would/does help and I say this with personal experience although with a totally different "product".
Having said that, what would be the next "primo" discus that would excite the appetite of discus purists or even those fanatics "that can't get enough discus"?

Great thread BTW.

[Apistomaster]

As pliable as discus have proven to be in the hands of breeders plus unique wild fish yet to be brought into the "fold" there are no limits to what we will see in the future that will pique the interests of discus fanciers.

The discus has proven to be as easy as guppies to breed by design into whatever is wanted. I'm surprised that one type I haven't seen yet is an all black discus or all black with the red and blue markings retained.

I did see the photo of a black discus captured by and shown in H. Bleher's new book. If that was a genetically black fish then it is probably only a matter of time before there is a domestic black.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Larry,

What I have come to realize is that many of the folks who have been defenders of the proposition Heckels are bred routinely in the Far East have yet to even bred any discus let alone ANY wild fish. Therefore their authoritive credentials are rather insubstantial.

I feel These kinds of comments are counter productive, and in my opinion completely uncalled for and hypocritical. You seem to feel that only your Opinion on whether heckels have been bred routinely in another part of the world than you live in is valid. You are welcome to your opinion on this subject as are other members here...but do not belittle the experiences of other members because their opinion is different from yours. I take personal offense at the implications and accusations here, as I am sure others do.

Please let me know why your "authoritative credentials " in this matter and wilds in general are any better than anyone elses that you can comment as above?

The Idea of the heckel project is to work together to solve the questions surrounding heckels.. Comments like these will do nothing to make this project a success, instead they will destroy it before it even gets off the ground. I have already found myself losing interest in posting on the matter...and I have invested a significant amount of tanks and stock to the project at my hatchery.

Mutual respect is the only thing that will allow open communication of ideas and thoughts here as to heckels breeding.

Thank you,
al

[Apistomaster]

Hi Al,
I'm a little surprised that you should bring this issue up long after that post was made and in a thread that has been nothing but friendly in tone.

I'll try to be more tactful. It cuts both ways. But if you wish to place it all on my doorstep, it's OK. It is as they say, "your store." I'm just the guy that asked you about whether this special subforum would be a good idea. Apparently you thought it was. If you feel strongly about the old post then you have the power to ban me. I don't wish to not be an asset to your website.

I guess 40 years of breeding discus beginning with wild fish first and the fact that none of these tank raised Heckels mentioned seem to have ever been seen or distributed by anyone in the West has formed two schools of thought.

1. The one that believes it is a rare event. You know I am hardly alone in this belief.
2. The one that believes it's routine. Where are their fish?

Camp two have been represented by some rather obnoxious statements, I have not been that obnoxious. I have expressed a desire for seeing signs of these routinely bred and produced Heckels but none have been forthcoming.
The breeders in the West, few as they have been, at least have recorded their results in photographic form and published them.

We can all just go back to working alone on our goals and no longer share information. I have for nearly all of these 40 years. That has been the way of the past. My wild discus resources are all invested in Heckels. I only raise domestics for the money. No one ever gave me the keys to the kingdom. I had to work it out by myself many years ago before everyone had hundreds of domestic strains from which to choose.
Maybe because I began breeding wild discus and selling F1 discus before most of my critics were born has given me a different perspective.
Cheers,
Larry Waybight

[brewmaster15]

Hi Al,
I'll try to be more tactful. It cuts both ways. But if you wish to place it all on my doorstep, it's OK. It is as they say, "your store." I'm just the guy that asked you about whether this special subforum would be a good idea. Apparently you thought it was.

I guess 40 years of breeding discus beginning with wild fish first and the fact that none of these tank raised Heckels mentioned seem to have never been seen or distributed by anyone in the West has formed two schools of thought.

1. The one that believes it is a rare event. You know I am hardly alone in this belief.
2. The one that believes it's routine. Where are their fish?

Camp two have been represented by some rather obnoxious statements, I have not been that obnoxious. I have expressed a desire for seeing signs of these routinely bred and produced Heckels but none have been forthcoming.
The breeders in the West, few as they have been, at least have recorded their results in photographic form and published them.

We can all just go back to working alone on our goals and no longer share information. I have for nearly all of these 40 years. That has been the way of the past. My wild discus resources are all invested in Heckels. I only raise domestics for the money. No one ever gave me the keys to the kingdom. I had to work it out by myself many years ago before everyone had hundreds of domestic strains from which to choose.
Cheers,
Larry Waybight

Larry,
Asking for the sub-forum doesn't give you any special rights..It was a good idea and I agreed and made...For the benefit of all...not anyone particular point of view.


I am not taking exception to your view on the current status of tank raised heckel. I am taking exception to what amounts to a totally uncalled for comment about members that differ from your opinion. Who are you to comment on what they have bred or have not bred? Forty years as a hobbyist is an accomplishment...its not a liscence.

I happen to be one that believes that heckels have been bred and can be bred easily given the right circumstances...I have seen enough Heckel crosses over the years to believe that... My reasons that they are not common are economics...Theres no commercial demand for f1 wilds....

Does your comment....

many of the folks who have been defenders of the proposition Heckels are bred routinely in the Far East have yet to even bred any discus let alone ANY wild fish. Therefore their authoritive credentials are rather insubstantial.

now apply to me because I disagree with your views? I have always respected your views...I don't agree but I respect them.

I don't have 40 years in this...and make no claims to it...but I can assure you that I am not inexperienced as your blanket statement implies.

That is my point....react to it as you see fit...but your post was not warranted and it has nothing to do with it being my forum.

Thank you,
al

[Apistomaster]

My post was not directed at you at all. It was for those who have very little experience with breeding discus but seem to be authorities on the subject and had been acerbic in their tone directed at me personally.

Of course I respect you. You already know that. As I said above, it is your website and it benefits you more than anyone else. You are free to do whatever you wish. I was of the impression that your experience with breeding discus included breeding wild fish.If I was wrong in that assumption, I apologize.

My suggesting that you add a special forum for working on the Heckel breeding problems gives me no rights. It was just a good enough suggestion for you to go ahead and open it.

I can only choose to share my experience as long as I 'm allowed to by you.
Discus fanciers can take what I say I know with a grain of salt. There are some that have expressed their thanks to me for sharing and I am happy to help discus fanciers to the extent I can or am allowed to. Nothing more.
Cheers,
Larry Waybright

[brewmaster15]

My post was not directed at you at all. It was for those who have very little experience with breeding discus but seem to be authorities on the subject and had been acerbic in their tone directed at me personally.

Of course I respect you. You already know that. As I said above, it is your website and it benefits you more than anyone else. You are free to do whatever you wish.

My suggesting that you add a special forum for working on the Heckel breeding problems gives me no rights. It was just a good enough suggestion for you to go ahead and open it.

I can only choose to share my experience as long as I 'm allowed to by you.
Discus fanciers can take what I say I know with a grain of salt. There are some that have expressed their thanks to me for sharing and I am happy to help discus fanciers to the extent I can or am allowed to. Nothing more.
Cheers,
Larry Waybright

Larry,
Directing that comment at anyone is wrong, ... whether directed at me or someone thats not even posting in this thread...It was an uncalled for personal attack and was not necessary to make in this thread.... what purpose did it serve? you used this thread to take a swipe at someone not even posting in this thread...

had been acerbic in their tone directed at me personally.

I suggest you take the gripe off the forum next time.. Posts like these don"t belong on this forum.


On a more related note... Something for you to think about when you are calling for your proof of tank raised heckels... you may want to look for Commercially raised f1 wild greens, browns, and blues... I think you will find them equally uncommon as f1 heckels.. and we KNOW that these non- heckel wild forms are easy to breed , don't we? Does that mean anything? It does to me.


If you want to debate the comment issue with me further...Pm or email me, but I suggest you drop it.

-al

Ps..

I was of the impression that your experience with breeding discus included breeding wild fish.If I was wrong in that assumption, I apologize.

apology not necessary..I am quite experienced at all aspects of keeping and breeding wilds discus, angels, and others

[Apistomaster]

Not debating. The reason I don't worry about F1 discus of the non-Heckel variety is that I can produce those for myself with just a little time and patience.

It is the frustration at doing so with Heckels that has always made me want to get them to spawn so tank raised Heckels become available to work with further without perhaps, as much difficulty in getting them in the first place.
Larry

[DavidH]

Hey all,
been a long time since I've posted.

Just a question? Back many years ago I visited Fairy Lake Discus Palace in San Francisco. I think the owners name was Herman.
I was sure he had an article that stated he had bred heckles...
Anybody heard of this guy and was it true?

Dave

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,
Herman is a legend, one of those truly gifted breeders.. I have heard from many that he had a knack for breeding heckels.. He is retired from what I hear but I do believe that he was one that bred heckels on several occasions.

Many consider him a true master with discus.

hth,
al