Spawning Heckle Question

[DavidH]

Thx Al,
I bought my very first discus from him. I think it was about 1983 or around that time.
He had pairs all around the top of his store above eye level.
I saw no fry so I asked Herman where they were. He took me into a back room full of tanks and fry.

Dave

[CliffsDiscus]

Herman Chan is the Heckle King that's it, lets look back at history, 40's years,
Dr.Walls Discus they were Heckle bloodline this was the late 60's, later Bing's Colbalt also from the same bloodline this was the early 70's. Where did these original bloodline come from no other than Herman Chan. Almost every
big Discus Dealers has visit Fairly Lake at one time or another. Herman is not
retired yet but he was just talking about it a couple weeks ago. The secret
of breeding the Heckle is out as Herman was talking about his method to me
a year ago.

Cliff

[brewmaster15]

The secret
of breeding the Heckle is out as Herman was talking about his method to me
a year ago.

Okay Cliff, soOOOOOO please do share...and get to work breeding them@!

-al

[ShinShin]

Larry,

I have taken exception to much of what you have written about everyone one else that disagrees with your ideas, many of which are either just plain wrong or are fostered by denial. I also know that you have not been breeding discus for 40years as you constantly brag. This info came from you via a direct email to myself. I have also read on another forum where you claim to be the first to breed the wild discus, and we all know that that simply is BS.

You have been offered time and time again, information that you ignore because it does not fit into the fantasyland you reside where you are sole king and master. BELIEVE THIS: PEOPLE ARE AND HAVE BEEN BREEDING HECKEL DISCUS IN CAPTIVITY, AND FOR QUITE AWHILE. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T DOESN'T MEAN OTHERS AREN'T. Many people here offered up evidence to this, and believe it or not, many of these people know more than you know. You'll find that last comment very unpalitable, but true. There are also many here that have been very succesful in breeding discus and are knowledgeable in all phases of the hobby.

It has been explained to you that there is no market for F1 Heckles, and because of that, Asian breeders are not mass producing them. As far as your question about why haven't they been offered for sale, you were given an answer to that as well, and just ignored it. They have been offered for sale. Discus Hawaii offered them for sale for quite awhile. Call Ray Kosaka and ask him personally. He is located in Honolulu. Dennis H. of this forum purchased and spawned these discus from Ray, but you've been told that already as well. There was simply no market and Ray quit carring them.

As far as Heiko's black discus, the discus was not black, simply a darker than normal discus. When we are talking black discus, we mean Yucatan Black Mollie black.

You asked for this subforum, act as though only your thoughts carry any substance and/or validity, and have driven people, myself included, away from participating. It's time to face reality, Larry: People have been and are breeding Heckles. Your not.

Mat

[Lisachromis]

Herman Chan is the Heckle King that's it, lets look back at history, 40's years,
Dr.Walls Discus they were Heckle bloodline this was the late 60's, later Bing's Colbalt also from the same bloodline this was the early 70's. Where did these original bloodline come from no other than Herman Chan. Almost every
big Discus Dealers has visit Fairly Lake at one time or another. Herman is not
retired yet but he was just talking about it a couple weeks ago. The secret
of breeding the Heckle is out as Herman was talking about his method to me
a year ago.

Cliff

Not trying to get involved here too much as I don't have heckels. But this got me thinking.... How do we know Dr. Walls discus were heckels? Or Bing's cobalts? Not saying they were or weren't, just want to know how we know they are.

[Ed13]

Not trying to get involved here too much as I don't have heckels.

Same here, I prob won't be posting again as I can't contribute much and I don't what to fuel more comments of the nature that have already taken place! Did not really liked reading something like this on this site!
I'm sorry to bring Kenny to this discussion, (Sorry buddy) however I love looking at his pics!
It seems to me that at least one breeder in Asia has or is using heckels for a breeding program and I don't know if their is or was a market for them but I really like them especially the ones from the first thread.. The threads:

pics 9-11 of Post #1, page #1
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54108

pics in post #209, page#21
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...=45944&page=21

I can't really comment much more as I've never breed Heckels myself nor have I visited facilities in Asia, I can only go with the trust the images and the person/or breeder word create

[Apistomaster]

Shin Shin,
I began breeding Wild discus in the Summer of 1969. I began breeding TR discus afer I grew out some of my F1's I have raised discus off and on ever since. I have taken breaks but it is like riding bicycles.
I did take a break to raise a family. But I stayed involved with tropical fish including discus. If you have a different impression about my accomplishments, I can't help you. I don't remember ever meeting you at any point in my fish keeping stint. I remember all the people who I helped get started with and later became discus breeders in their own right.

What I posted was that in 1969 I was the only one here in the Pacific NW East of the Cascades who did raise discus to the best of anyones' knowledge.
Not to mean clear to the East coast but just limited to the 300 mile radius where the surrounding shops bought my fish. I raised discus instead of having a "real job" through my years attending my local community college. I was able to go jobless despite the fact that I only charged $3.00 each for my discus. When selling to the shops back then I would have enough feed back to know that no one else was raising discus for sale. That is something that was news back then and we in the region all knew each other, Put it in another way, I had no competition from another discus breeder in within my regional distribution area.

I did meet other discus breeders in that period in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. They were all Asian breeders. You have no clue as to what I have done in my involvement as a tropical fish keeper starting at age 11 until today. All you know about me is that I am lighted phosphors on your computer screen
I opened my own shop with the help of my parents in 1966.
It became a matter of public record through local newspaper stories that in 1969 I had the largest fish shop in Idaho. Not many 17 year olds had a fish shop then let alone the largest in my region. It was unusual for kids my age to have gone that far. Unusual enough to cause the write ups. I just happened to begin breeding discus at that same time. We closed the retail shop in 1972 and I continued to raise discus for the shops East of the Cascades here in the PNW until the end of 1972. I have intermittantly raised groups to get a few pairs and sold surplus fry as a hobbyist throughout the years from '69 until the present.
I have retired early and have been supplying discus to local fish shops and several in Spokane.
For all I know you may have raised many more wild discus and later, domestic discus than myself, maybe 20 years before I was born. Feel free to share.
I have a lot of history in the inland PNW and because others buy from me they know me now and they know me by reputation from way back because they were the kids who worked for the people I use to sell to and have gone on the open their own shops as the old guard grows old and is replaced.
The facts are that I had to travel far and wide to meet other discus breeders when I was beginning. It was something one had to do if you wanted to meet them because there were few and far between in the West in those years. Of course if you were actively involved with discus back then you would already know all this.
It should be pointed out that since you are among my greatest critics and I have been very open about my experience all I have heard are your critiques but nothing about your own background in breeding wild or domestic fish.
Would love to hear about your experiences and depth. I might find I can learn somethng from you that would help me be a better discus breeder. I raise a variety of fish but I did sell a $1000 in discus last month at wholesale prices.
I have a small fish room and many other interests and I can only sell this many discus regionally three or four times a year. Discus are just one type of fish I raise and sell.
Larry Waybright

[brewmaster15]

Larry,

What I posted was that in 1969 I was the only one here in the Pacific NW East of the Cascades to did raise discus to the best of anyones' knowledge.
Not to mean clear to the East coast but just limited to the 300 mile radius where the surrounding shops bought my fish. I raised discus instead of having a "real job" through my years attending my local community college. When selling to the shops back then I would have enough feed back to know that no one else was raising discus for sale. That is something that was news back then and we in the region all knew each other, Put it in another way, I had no competition from another discus breeder in within my regional distribution area.

I Think that the quote Shin shin was referring to is on another forum .....

The quote was...

Hello All,
I'm Larry Waybright aka apistomaster. I have been breeding tropical fish since 1965. I am either the first or one of the first to begin breeding wild discus starting in 1969, in Lewiston, ID. I continue raising discus. Currently I have a nice turquoise strain and I have 10 Heckel discus growing up

I don't know if you were or were not the first to breed wild discus..... to be honest it doesn't matter to me either way....what I do I know is this thread went way of track Larry and it started when you deliberately took a pot shot at another forum member that had not even posted in the thread yet... I don't know how you expected it to play out...but it has played out exactly how comments attacking others play out on a forum... with a return attacking comment.

I think its time for you and Shin-shin to take it off the forum.....This is not going to go anywhere but downhill from here....

I'd rather not lock this thread, but I will if need be.


Thanks,
al

[Apistomaster]

I am agreeable to that, Al.
I do think is is true that I did not misrepresent myself.
One can hardly change the history of one's life.
It is just some local history that happens to be true.
Larry

[Yoda]

My problem is not to get the Heckels to spawn but to get the eggs hatced.

By lover the pH to 6 the spawning starts, but I newer has been able to get the egg hatched. kH is between 2 and 3 and the temperature is 29C.

[Darren's Discus]

Yoda,
great pictures all the best trying to hatch the eggs ! keep us posted on your efforts .


cheers

[Apistomaster]

My problem is not to get the Heckels to spawn but to get the eggs hatced.

By lover the pH to 6 the spawning starts, but I newer has been able to get the egg hatched. kH is between 2 and 3 and the temperature is 29C.

Yoda,
Congratulations. Your recorded success in spawning your Heckels is inspiring. Seeing is believing.
Do they continue to spawn?
If so have you or are you going to experiment by tweaking some fine points like lower pH, higher temperature, simulating blackwater, raising the measured redox potential, UV or ozonization to provide very low water bacterial counts and even just trying to hatch some out artificially and using methylen blue or some such just to see if the eggs are at least fertile?
There has to be some way to get them to go all the way once you get this close..
I know that it is not that unsusual for wild discus to only spawn once or twice then never again for reasons that hard to fathom. For me, with wild greens and one pair of Royal Blues, the males were ready but it was the females that were so hard to keep healthy enough to produce more ripe eggs. It always seeme that spawning took so much of what little reserve energy they had that they would sometimes become run down after spawning as if it just took too much out of them.
Could be I supplied an inadequate diet and I know that in the past there were no antihelminthics which were of low toxicity/high efficacy and I suspected that was a contributing factor. There are such much more improved medications available now that keeping the females closer to peak condition has a greater chance than when the cures were as bad or worse than the infestations.

A good post to perhaps put this Heckel project back on the right track. It's about just the fish.

[Yoda]

My Heckelpair are placed in a community tank so lowering the pH under 6 is not recommended. The only way to do this is by lowering the kH too. With a heavy planted tank and low pH and kH the water is unstable. I have a pair of browns that also are spawning in the tank, but I have the same problem with them.

The community tank is a 140 gallon tank with three Eheim canister filters. Automatic pH-regulation with CO2. The spring water is about 7.8-8.0 and with 0 kH. With CO2 I normally lower the PH to 6.7 and with carbonate I raise the kH between 2 and 3.

To get the discus in the mod I don’t use carbonate with WC and the kH slowly gets between 0 and 1. More CO2 is added and the pH dropping down to 6. With heavy WC and increased water movement the fish are trigged.

I don’t dare too lower the pH further because of the risk of damaging the filter bacteria. To do this I have to move them to a 48 gallon BB-tank where it is easier to control the watervalues and quality of the water.

To prime the fish, before trying to get them to spawn, I am using homemade beefheartmix and liquid vitamins. The pair is three years old so I am not in a hurry. Patience is the name of the game

[beamolite]

Hi fellow Heckelers,

I know that there are two schools of thought on whether Heckles...true Heckles, have ever been bred in captivity. Which raises a question that I have had for awhile about the topic. Many years ago, maybe the late '80s, I remember a hobbyist named David Dollman, who lives in my state,of Illinois, in a Chicago suburb, who supposedly bred two wild Heckles together. He was one of the hobbyist in Wattleys'" Discus for the perfectionist book". Also, from what I have heard, is that Wattey himself wanted to, and did, trade some of his fish for the F1 Dollman Heckles,and also getting himself into the above mentioned Wattley book for doing so. Does anyone remember this?, and if so, were they actually two pure Heckles? As far as I knew at the time, it was NOT a Heckle cross.
Bill

I am David Dollman and yes I successfully bred two wild Heckels together in July 1988 and got about 100 babies from the spawn. I got the parents when they were very small. I was able to go with a friend who owned a petshop to a wholesaler and obtained them there. I sent Jack pictures of the parents and he said yes they were indeed pure Heckels Jack traded me some fish in exchange for the babies. I lost the parents and all my discus when the angelfish-discus disease wiped out all my fish. If you have anymore questions feel free to contact me.

[madfish]

When I was down in Rio I stopped in a pet shop one day. And what I seen will never leave my mind that place was the heaven of all shops. He had every kind of discus and amazon fish that you could think of. But really stuck in my mind is one tank he had a pair of heckels in there with some very young fry on them. I only wish that there wasnt a language gap between us so I could have found out what he did to get them to breed. One day I will have to make another trip down there just to see if that shop is still there.