Spawning Heckle Question

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Al,

thank you very much for the clarification. You know I am really on the road (or better in the jungle of nature or the jungle of civilization and the latter is not so much my cup of tea...) most of the time, therefore I cannot be with you, or better forums all the time. But I must give you some credit, and I have told the same to many people on my exhibitions and lectures around the globe, those who ask me, that simplydiscus is one of the best forums worldwide. And I also think Larry does a very good job... He knows discus and other fishes.

I also must tell you, that I am not so difficult to reach, as there are cell.phones and internet now already in the deep jungle areas (many wireless), but still, if I get a advice by e-mail of a thread people asking (to me or some wild) questions, I can answer fast. This is been done with several forums and works very well. maybe you want to think about it.

Anyhow, thanks again and all the very best, and keep up the good work

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com
PS: later on there will be some wild Cuipeuá biotopes on my website, authentic biotopes I decorated at Interzoo with details of the description of the orginal discus habitat

[brewmaster15]

Dear Al,

thank you very much for the clarification. You know I am really on the road (or better in the jungle of nature or the jungle of civilization and the latter is not so much my cup of tea...) most of the time, therefore I cannot be with you, or better forums all the time. But I must give you some credit, and I have told the same to many people on my exhibitions and lectures around the globe, those who ask me, that simplydiscus is one of the best forums worldwide. And I also think Larry does a very good job... He knows discus and other fishes.

I also must tell you, that I am not so difficult to reach, as there are cell.phones and internet now already in the deep jungle areas (many wireless), but still, if I get a advice by e-mail of a thread people asking (to me or some wild) questions, I can answer fast. This is been done with several forums and works very well. maybe you want to think about it.

Anyhow, thanks again and all the very best, and keep up the good work

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com
PS: later on there will be some wild Cuipeuá biotopes on my website, authentic biotopes I decorated at Interzoo with details of the description of the orginal discus habitat

Thank you Heiko! We try hard to be a good resource for discus enthusiasts everywhere....I appreciate your kind words here.

I will think about your suggestion...maybe we can talk about it further.

Thanks again,
al

[ShinShin]

Heiko,

I never claimed to spawn wild discus, much less be the first to do so, nor do I recall ever saying anything about you and black discus. You are very confused, man. Perhaps Larry W. said something about that. He is Apistomaster. In my day, I was known as the LoveMaster Maybe you have heard about me, and that has caused this confusion .

While I never would challenge your knowledge on wild discus, as you probabally already read on the thread regarding which wild discus book is the best, I basically said your book had no equals, I do strongly disagree with you insistance that Heckels and Heckel crosses are rarely bred. That is a totally ignorant statement on your behalf. Pictures, as you want, are located right here in the Sponsor section. Ray Kosaka sold them regularly when he owned Discus Hawaii. Dennis Hardenberger (a member here at one time) purchsed some and successfully spawned these. My friend, Shaifullah Yeng, who graced me with an autographed copy of his 2nd book Penang Discus 2nd edition as a gift, has pictures in his book, as does Degen. Alberto, a member here, spawned wild Heckels. F1 Heckels have been offered several times on Aquabid.com. These were F1's spawnwed by Ken Davis, also a member here.

I asked Shaifullah Yeng and Ray Kosaka (by the way, they both confirmed the regular spawning of Heckels, and Heckel crosses in Asia) why they weren't more common and both said there was no market for them. So, I have to disagree at how lucrative these discus would be. While your expertise in wild discus in their natural habitat may be unquestioned, in this area, it is very suspect. Here, the Asian breeders are your master.

Regards,
Mat, the other Larry

[Apistomaster]

Heiko,

I never claimed to spawn wild discus, much less be the first to do so, nor do I recall ever saying anything about you and black discus. You are very confused, man. Perhaps Larry W. said something about that. He is Apistomaster. In my day, I was known as the LoveMaster Maybe you have heard about me, and that has caused this confusion .

Snip


Regards,
Mat, the other Larry

Mat,
I thought it was settled that we would spare the sarcasm and just stick to what we know and you really don't know me and have no business implying I made any statements that I have not. Please exercise some restraint and respect.
Thank you.

[plecocicho]

It may be tru that spawning of heckel and hybrid discus has hapenned, but the spawning of two heckels with eachother is rare. I doubt that the absence of true F1 heckels is due to nonexistant market for such discus. I doubt so much, that i will do a poll on this subforum.

[plecocicho]

Edit, i think that can be done only by the moderator group,right? Can then the group moderator please do this poll: Would you buy true (not hybrid) F1 heckel discus if it was for sale?

[William Palumbo]

I would buy F1 Heckle fry. From most pics I see in books...the fry from the Heckle crosses never look good...from the shape, to the central bar...never seen any crosses that looked like "real" Heckles...therefore I would not purchase fry from a Heckle cross...Bill

[wgtaylor]

Ok, for some Heckle breeding info.....I found this web site very interesting. Yoshito Ikeda in Japan has been breeding Heckle males and females. He doesn't seem to breed Heckle to Heckle only Heckle crosses. He has some good documentation complete with pictures. Maybe Heiko can say if these are true Heckle but they look good to me. Wild Blues and Greens are also documented. I had to do a lot of digging to get water parameters and kept a spread sheet which I have included a picture. Here are three links to Yoshito's site. Long links hope they work. The translation to English is not perfect. Bill



Original Japanese Only Site
http://homepage2.nifty.com/discus-breeding/

Translated Japanese to English
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Translated Japanese to Spanish
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[William Palumbo]

Cool link Bill...Too bad they do not show what the fry turn out to be...or did I miss it?...Bill

[plecocicho]

Bill
this links corroborate my claim (and Heikos) about breeding of heckels.
William i meant heckelxheckel, not heckelx(hybrid, wild green, wild blue).

[wgtaylor]

Bill Palumbo, click on the number 1 - 17 and it wll bring up another page with info and pictures of fry.

plecocicho, This is only breeding info for wilds. Yoshito chose to breed Heckle crosses. It may be the Heckle females don't like Heckle males, I could'nt say. Bill

[William Palumbo]

Thanx Bill...I see it now. I figured I missed it. Did not know to click on the numbers. So far I do see a lot of nicely shaped fry...Bill

[wgtaylor]

It is not my intention to support any debates only provide Heckle breeding info. It appears Yoshito uses the dry season method, isolating the spawning tank and letting the ph drop until spawning activity starts. Another person to do this was JimmyL. He posted on Discus as a Hobby how he spawned many Heckles that way. I suppose you could e-mail either of these two to see if they had success with Heckle to Heckle. Just getting a female Heckle to spawn is a step in the right direction. Bill

[Apistomaster]

Seems like we could add the Heckel breeding topic to religion and politics as one of those really polarizing subjects.

I think it's clear from my posts that I agree that successful spawns of Heckel X Heckel are few to non-existent, yet I stop short of believing it has never been done. There are too many skilled aquarists, who have operated silently behind the scenes for decades, for me to assert that it has never been accomplished. It is logically impossible to prove it has not been done.
It is possible to observe that pure tank raised Heckels are not currently available in the USA.
It is a fact that Heckel Discus are imported in large numbers to Japan and Japanese aquarists want them badly enough to pay prices we would find exorbitant. That speaks for itself that this species of Discus is commercially viable in Japan, at least.

I am comfortable with the concept that pure bred tank raised Heckel Discus would have commercial value in the West. I for one, would sure be interested in having some and believe I'm not alone in this.

I have noticed that what little pre-spawn behaviors like potential spawning site cleaning and false spawning runs I have observed by a couple pairs of my Heckels have a close correlation with simulated dry seasons followed by generous RO water changes. There's no doubt, in my mind, that this is a part of the puzzle, in inducing a female to produce ripe eggs. They have also shown a strong preference for choosing smooth sections of wood to clean.

But there is still something missing to the solution of finding an approach that finally leads to repeated successful breeding of pure wild Heckels. Hopefully, those who figure it out will be willing to share the details of their successful methods so they may be subjected to peer review and experimentation. The scientific method is the most powerful tool mankind has invented for answering questions or solving problems relating to the physical universe. It has the beauty of being free of personal bias or opinion.

Wild Blue/Browns respond well to a similar regime simulating the dry then wet season but they are a pretty accommodating species of wild discus in the first place.

Breeding any species of wild Discus is good experience to use as a stepping stone. I think spawning wild Greens is a step closer to spawning Heckel Discus than wild Blues since they
also prefer more extreme water conditions and a diet more similar to Heckel Discus than Blues. They seem to be a little more demanding Discus species than Blue/Browns.

[Göran Ekholm]

Give me a PM on where and from how and i will bay all f1 heckels any of you can produce.