Heckels Pairing off?

[Apistomaster]

Since repotting most of my Sword plants from the substrate 3 "pairs" of Heckels have taking up stations at the three pots. Watching the pots and warding off the other discus.

This is similar behavior a pair I had long ago demonstrated. That pair actually cleaned the flowerpot sidewalls.

These are not as mature as that older pair I used to have 30 years ago but signs of pairing had begun prior to the potting of the big swords.

Maybe some baby steps towards eventually spawning? I reserve the right to hope.
Larry W.

[Moon]

That's good news Larry. Hope those baby steps become big steps soon. My heckels are still too small. But my Altums are starting to pair off.
Joe

[Apistomaster]

One thing interesting about what these "pairs" are doing by choosing the sites they find interesting is that in the few published photos of wild Heckels spawning, many show the discus choosing similar sites. Mine had a spawning cone in their tank but they never showed an interest in it.
Maybe Heckels have a preference for more protected spawning site than we are used to with our other discus. Not 100% because aquatechnics spawn was in the open on a cone if I remember correctly. Still, with the other aspects of Heckel behavior that differ slightly maybe this is a clue.
The one other time I came close that pair also chose a flower pot containing a large Amazon Sword. That was when we had a family run fish shop which was closed and the inventory liquidated and I could not contnue to keep those Heckels. That pair were two very large adults. I honestly doen't think mine are mature enough to breed yet but all discus go through some prelimenaries as they pass through adolescence and nearing maturity. I'm estimating my fish need another year before they are full adults.
Larry W.

[Darren's Discus]

exciting news Larry,
keep us posted .


cheers

[Apistomaster]

Hi Darren,

Thank you for your encouragement.
I have question for you. Is it correct for me to say that wild Heckel Discus are very rarely imported to Australia? The reason I ask is as you may have noticed that some members are sure that Heckels are bred regularly by the SE Asian breeders. If this was so wouldn't you Australian aquarists buy them if they were available? As I understand it it is not hard for you to obtain SE Asian Discus and would pay the asking price.

It just have this feeling that where there is a market suppliers will take advantage of the opportunity even if they don't care for them themselves.

Larry W.

[Darren's Discus]

Larry,
sorry for the late reply just noticed this,Mate we don't get alot of wilds downunder due to quarentine and shipping requirements and if we do the prices are so high that they don't sell very well.I am shure if they were breeding true heckels i'm shure we would be getting them ! How are your's going any luck ?


cheers

[Apistomaster]

Hi Darren,
Nice of you to ask.
My Heckels are just reaching full maturity after having them for ~18 months. They were very small, only 3 to 3-1/4 inches when I bought them. As they got to be ~5-1/2 inches they began working on becoming thick.

One pair has formed and has a piece of bog wood they guard and clean. There is another pair too but the dominant pair has been keeping 1/2 of the tank for themselves and crowding the other eight into the remaining half. Mingling of the whole group happens at feeding time and as the food disappears the courtship displays get going. The Heckels seem to do everything in a deliberate and subtle way compared to wild Blue/Browns or domestics which show vigorous enthusiasm when it come to displaying or even eating. You can really see the difference in the way they eat. They tend to be constant feeders. Mine sift sand all the time and the bottom is dimpled with little pits from where the searched it for bits of food. This is just as H. Bleher has written up on the results of stomach content analysis; they are largely detritus feeders. I have been able to get Heckels to this point before but never to the point of spawning. I think it is still a little early for them to breed and that they could use a little more maturation.

I'm looking for them to get even thicker bodies. They are still living in my unaltered tap water(pH 7.5 and TDS ~340 ppm) but I will begin lowering the hardness and pH this winter. I also will add peat to the filter system. If they did spawn now I doubt their eggs could hatch in my water as is.

I think there are many factors about their life cycle in the wild, especially dietary and seasonal factors that are difficult to reproduce in captivity that have kept Heckels from being bred as much as the other species of Discus. I see many parallels between the challenge of breeding Heckels and that of breeding the Altum Angels. Both live in very similar biotopes and yet their close cousin species are relatively easier to breed.
I always thought if Heckels were given the intense focus of resources given to breeding reef aquarium fish we would have domesticated strains of Heckels a long time ago. This is what I would like or at least to see, is have more of us with experience with breeding wild Discus to jump in. As much as I would like to be the one what I really care about is the discus hobbyists just get to the point where we domesticate Heckels. I don't necessarily think Heckels are the most colorful species of Discus but I do think they are the most regal species of Discus.

[Jason]

Actually one of the few people to breed heckel to heckel consistantly was an Aussie named Don Handley. I beleive he took the heckel to F5. I'm not sure if he's still around, Rod might know.

[Rod]

Actually one of the few people to breed heckel to heckel consistantly was an Aussie named Don Handley. I beleive he took the heckel to F5. I'm not sure if he's still around, Rod might know.

Talk about coincidences Jason...i was just chatting to a bloke on saturday about Don and his heckels. Don is not actually an Aussie, having bred his heckels and cardinal tetras and the list goes on for the difficults he has bred, in New Zealand. But he retired to the Sunshine coast about an hours north of my home must be 15 years ago now. So i think we can rightly claim him?? LOL
Anyway Don was a regular at the sunshine coast aquarium club and thats where my mate knew him from. Don had skylights, massive tanks and extremely dense plant growth in his heckel tanks from what i have been told and read about him. New zealand has magnificent water supplies which prob helped a lot.

Larry, wish i had heckels showing spawning behaviour, good luck mate and send the babies to Darren and i when they breed

[Darren's Discus]

Larry, wish i had heckels showing spawning behaviour, good luck mate and send the babies to Darren and i when they breed [/QUOTE]


Yes please !

cheers

[Apistomaster]

Talk about coincidences Jason...i was just chatting to a bloke on saturday about Don and his heckels. Don is not actually an Aussie, having bred his heckels and cardinal tetras and the list goes on for the difficults he has bred, in New Zealand. But he retired to the Sunshine coast about an hours north of my home must be 15 years ago now. So i think we can rightly claim him?? LOL
Anyway Don was a regular at the sunshine coast aquarium club and thats where my mate knew him from. Don had skylights, massive tanks and extremely dense plant growth in his heckel tanks from what i have been told and read about him. New zealand has magnificent water supplies which prob helped a lot.

Larry, wish i had heckels showing spawning behaviour, good luck mate and send the babies to Darren and i when they breed

I have often wondered what a difference it might make to have them in a solarium or green house where much of the light is natural daylight and the tanks were very large.(~500 gals.). Maybe more wood but with a few plants, especially some like lilies with floating leaves.
Maybe only ten or twelve Heckels or less once actual spawning pairs formed. Maybe two pairs could share a 500 gal successfully?

I would just like any of us to be successful enough to produce plenty of fry that could be shared with many other experienced breeders with the hope we get an aquarium strain of Heckels firmly established in our hobby.

[Rod]

I have often wondered what a difference it might make to have them in a solarium or green house where much of the light is natural daylight and the tanks were very large.(~500 gals.). Maybe more wood but with a few plants, especially some like lilies with floating leaves.
Maybe only ten or twelve Heckels or less once actual spawning pairs formed. Maybe two pairs could share a 500 gal successfully?

I would just like any of us to be successful enough to produce plenty of fry that could be shared with many other experienced breeders with the hope we get an aquarium strain of Heckels firmly established in our hobby.

I have often thought along those lines as well. Huge tanks and natural daylight, and lots of branches and plants. I am thinking that in the spawning season the discus moves into the flooded forest and breeds in the canopy of trees?
Perhaps the plants simulate the cover the leaves on the trees affords them giving them the security they need to spawn. They breed on the branches. And the plants and algaes may satisfy the needs/ or partially at least for the fruits and algaes they eat in nature. Food for thought. I've already picked out a spot for the 500, now to talk the boss into it...lol.

[samir]

The Heckels seem to do everything in a deliberate and subtle way compared to wild Blue/Browns or domestics which show vigorous enthusiasm when it come to displaying or even eating. You can really see the difference in the way they eat.

Interesting you would say that. My heckels are very aggressive feeders. Most of the time they are hyperactive, always hungry and fighting with each other. my ph is usually at 3.8-5.0. I've tried neutral ph but they become less active and eat less. temp is 85, tap kh is 0 so I add a teaspoon of shellgrit.

i've had one staring at a piece of driftwood for a month, but thats about it. they are still young 5" total length, so I guess there's more growing to do.

Good luck with your efforts to breed them. I doubt that they are bred easily in Asia, otherwise, as Darren said, we'd have a lot more of them around down under.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Samir,
I don't mean I think Heckels are push overs; they are far too assertive to ever say that. I guess what I tried to convey is my group are very sociable while at the same time there is a definite pecking order but no one fish truly dominates over all the others.
I like to think I was fortunate when I was able to buy my group when they were rather young; at about 3 to 3-1/4 inches back in May of '06. They have lived most of their lives together and have never been moved from their present home since they became mine. This has given them enough time to develop a communication system such that a discus equivalent of a raised eyebrow or posturing is sufficient to get a message across to another. They are closing in on the six inch mark now so they definitely are good eaters.
There are a few distinct pairs that when not staring at their chosen piece of wood are quick to encourage the others away from their spot. This appears to be mainly between two females trying to attract the male away from the one female it associates with. These behaviors also began when they reached about five inches.
You have to watch out for me. I don't conceal my bias for Heckels well.

[Göran Ekholm]

Try to hower the Ph too 4 that you probebly will hawe sucsses. The eggs need less salt to hach give them RO water filterd over old oak leavs.