Help! Nitrites up to 0.25 ppm in main tank

[Graham]

Connie, I've also heard that NO2 is more toxic than NH3 but IMO it's 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of the other. In normal situations neither will kill a fish quick....Mind you if you drop a fish into 4ppm of either the NO2 will do them in pretty quick compared to NH3

You probably know this but maybe Sophie doesn't................In the case of NH3 as it builds in the water it irritates the fish and will eventually burn them. As the levels build in the water the fish in unable to get the ammonia, that he's constantly producing, out of their body, so they are being poisoned by it also. All fish are effected by NH3, with GF being less affacted of any fish.

With NO2, it's a gradual thing as it builds in the water more and more of it is picked up by the chloride pumps within the cells of the gills. Once in the blood stream is oxidizes haemoglobin, which carries O2, into methaemoglobin which can't carry O2. So the fish slowly suffocates. Long term low levels won't kill the fish but in a weakened state it is open to bacterial infections etc. Not all fish are affected the same...some have no tolerance to it while others like GF can take a fair amount. Depending on NO2 levels the salt might have to be increase up to 1 to 3 teaspoons per gallon.

[poconogal]

Connie, I've also heard that NO2 is more toxic than NH3 but IMO it's 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of the other. In normal situations neither will kill a fish quick....Mind you if you drop a fish into 4ppm of either the NO2 will do them in pretty quick compared to NH3

You probably know this but maybe Sophie doesn't................In the case of NH3 as it builds in the water it irritates the fish and will eventually burn them. As the levels build in the water the fish in unable to get the ammonia, that he's constantly producing, out of their body, so they are being poisoned by it also. All fish are effected by NH3, with GF being less affacted of any fish.

With NO2, it's a gradual thing as it builds in the water more and more of it is picked up by the chloride pumps within the cells of the gills. Once in the blood stream is oxidizes haemoglobin, which carries O2, into methaemoglobin which can't carry O2. So the fish slowly suffocates. Long term low levels won't kill the fish but in a weakened state it is open to bacterial infections etc. Not all fish are affected the same...some have no tolerance to it while others like GF can take a fair amount. Depending on NO2 levels the salt might have to be increase up to 1 to 3 teaspoons per gallon.

Graham, I've researched extensively regarding toxicity of nitrite, once I read, for the first time, that it was more toxic than ammonia (I was very skeptical). At no time did I ever come across anything that suggested the opposite. Since I've also researched this again online, very recently (sometime last year) perhaps evidence is even more conclusive now about nitrite being more toxic than ammonia than it had been a few years ago. However, when I first started keeping fish, I remember that the popular "fact" back then was that ammonia was king of toxicity. That being said, like you stated, 6 of one, half dozen of the other - both will stress and eventually kill fish either directly or through secondary means.

Regarding the use of salt for prevention of nitrite poisoning, I've also read different opinions on dosage, including one article that said only a very miniscule amount is actually necessary to prevent nitrite poisoning - not even close to the 1 tsp. per 10 gals. that I have had to use. I personally would never use 1 to 3 tsp. per gallon in a Discus tank however... JMO. Last year I lost my bio filter when I opened my new tank. I used Prime and salt. Since Prime detoxifies nitrite but only for a set amount of time per dosage, I used the salt as insurance along with it.

And yes, you are right I learned about ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (back then nitrate was considered TOTALLY harmless unless is rose to incredible amounts in your tank - hmmm... probably why I kept losing my Blue Rams - and it was said that WCs only needed to be done once a month!) and their affects on fish the hard way when I first started keeping fish back in '91. Set up the tank, bought a whole mess of fish, plopped them in and wondered why they were dying after a week. Too bad the LFS didn't bother telling me about the bio filter and cycling a tank until I went back to them with questions!

[Don Trinko]

nitrite poisoning and salt: My understanding is that there have to be more salt ions available than nitrite ions. If this is true the exact dosage would depend on the amount of nitrites. This being said I thing Grahams recomendation is apropriate for most situations in that it will protect the fish from the nitrites but will not be too high to bother the fish. Don T.

[poconogal]

I've used 1 tsp. per TEN gallons in the past when I had a nitrite reading of almost 5 ppm. The dosage I used worked very well, along with Prime. Again, I would not use up to 3 tsps. of salt per ONE gallon in a Discus tank and I don't think that would ever be necessary. Here are some links and excerpts about treatment for nitrite:

http://www.fishtanksandponds.info/ca..._poisoning.htm

....Add some salt to the water, just 1/2 teaspoon is effective for all but the largest aquariums and at this low level even fish which don't tolerate salt all that well will be safe...

Another excerpt and link: http://www.gnsaquarium.com.au/html/ammonia_nitrite.html

The addition of one gram of aquarium salt per 2 litre of water will prevent methemoglobin from building up. Aeration should be increased. Feedings should be reduced and no new fish should be added until nitrite levels are reduced to zero.
If your fish show any symptoms of nitrite poisoning you should immediately test the aquarium water, if the water tests with nitrite you should...

Nitrite is lethal at lower levels than ammonia. Therefore continue daily testing and treatment until the nitrite falls to zero.

And yet one more: http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.php

Nitrite reaches a toxic level at about 0.1 ppm, which would require about 3 ppm of chloride ions. Depending on the salt (sodium chloride) used, it might translate to about 5 ppm (given that common salt has a chloride concentration of 60%) to ease possible nitrite poisoning. This in mind, one teaspoon of salt would be sufficient to provide this effect for a 300 Gallon tank.

As a brief summary, 1 teaspoon per 300 Gallons will do as described above. Table salt does contain iodine and anti caking additives (to prevent the salt from clumping together). Iodine is essential for certain plants and animals, and definitely of no concern, considering the low amount of salt and the low concentration of iodine added to the salt. Iodine at this concentration should be rather beneficial instead.

[Graham]

Connie I'm going to be picky as hell here, just to be a complete pain in the ***... What I'm trying to show is that most hobbyist sites really don't have a clue what they are talking about..they interpret

Your 1st site calls it by a name that they must have made up..it's Brown not Black.

''....This makes the blood very dark in colour and gives rise to a common name for this condition - Black Blood Disease...''

This one states that it won't build up with salt additions..well it doesn't build up in the 1st place it's created as the NO2 enters the blood system of the fish.... up the chloride ion and it can't enter the fish.

''....The addition of one gram of aquarium salt per 2 liter of water will prevent methemoglobin from building up....''

The next one thinks taht 1 teaspoon per 300 gallons might be right...well in certain situations he might be right....If you look on the aquacultrure web sites, they try go anywhere from from 3:1, to 15:1 when it comes to the chloride/nitrite ratio.

The amount of salt added to a system will depend of the NO2 level, ambient chloride levels and the fish's tolerance to NO2. There are calculators on the web to figure out how much salt to add to a system depending on the NO2 level. 1 teaspoon per 10 may very well be low depending on the NO2 levels...With some water supplies NO2 will never be a problem considering ambient salt levels

Ok enough of being a PITA

[poconogal]

Graham, you can be as picky as you'd like, but how do you know that THEY don't know what they are talking about? Perhaps THEY do... and they would think that YOU don't... and aside from that, I can't imagine anyone allowing nitrites to build to the point where they'd need 3 tsp. of salt per gallon in their Discus tank! With WCs being the first course of action to reduce nitrite, that should never be necessary, since "Nitrite reaches a toxic level at about 0.1 ppm, which would require about 3 ppm of chloride ions. Depending on the salt (sodium chloride) used, it might translate to about 5 ppm (given that common salt has a chloride concentration of 60%) to ease possible nitrite poisoning. This in mind, one teaspoon of salt would be sufficient to provide this effect for a 300 Gallon tank." So, if one tsp. per 300 gallons would work for the stated ratio, hobbyists' tanks should be just fine and dandy using 1 tsp. per 10 gallons.

As far as the first site calling it Black Blood, perhaps where they are located that's what it's called! What does it matter, you say tomato, I say tomatoe, a rose is a rose... the name is not important, treatment is what matters here.

There were numerous other sites that said the same thing re dosage as the sites I posted... way too many links to post. Could they all be wrong? All of them????

[Graham]

Connie I'm not sure what part of the world they live in but the Aquaculture and Aquarium World call it Brown Blood Disease since the gills and the blood takes on a brown colour, not black, from the lack of O2 in it. ............


In most aquarium situations the 1/10 galls is probably fine...then throw in some major water changes everyday and nitrite should never be a problem. But in large volumes of water such as ponds or aquaculture, NO2 can and will build to extreme levels....massive water changes are not possible or very expensive. It would be rare to have to use 3 teaspoons per gallon, but Brett Rowly, Fish biologist, fish farmer and koi breeder in Tx will tell you he's used it on more than one occassion ........ one, normally is more than enough.



http://aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/462fs.pdf

[poconogal]

Connie I'm not sure what part of the world they live in but the Aquaculture and Aquarium World call it Brown Blood Disease since the gills and the blood takes on a brown colour, not black, from the lack of O2 in it. ............


In most aquarium situations the 1/10 galls is probably fine...then throw in some major water changes everyday and nitrite should never be a problem. But in large volumes of water such as ponds or aquaculture, NO2 can and will build to extreme levels....massive water changes are not possible or very expensive. It would be rare to have to use 3 teaspoons per gallon, but Brett Rowly, Fish biologist, fish farmer and koi breeder in Tx will tell you he's used it on more than one occassion ........ one, normally is more than enough.



http://aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/462fs.pdf

Its still the treatment that counts, NOT the word they are using... brown blood, black blood, (heck, maybe that was just a typo), blue blood, whatever. Still toxic... if they are referring to nitrite poisoning in their article, and they are. They are also giving TREATMENT recommendations, which is what the important thing is. Heck, an elevator in the USA is a lift in the UK. Does that change what the actual item is or what its function is?

Of course, we are not dealing with huge aquaculture or Discus ponds here on SD, but tanks, 20s, 30s, 45s, 55s, 75s, 125s, 150s, 180s, maybe some 200s (of course there was one 700 gal. I believe, posted). Nowhere can I recall reading about someone's Discus pond and nitrite, and Sophie's tank is 80 gals., I believe?

[Don Trinko]

OK; I got this book "Handbook of fish diseases" by Dieter Undergasser.
In his book on page 116 he say's"Nitrite toxicity for fish starts at 10 mg/l. Nitrate toxicity starts at 100 to 300 mg/l. " he also say's " Amonnia poisoning shows up at a level of .3 mg/l as skin and nerve damage." What is this in ppm? Don T.

[brewmaster15]

Really need to stress this... ammonia+ water change = no ammonia
and nitrite+ water change= no nitrite..


Both toxins are equally non-toxic if they are not present!...keep it SIMPLE


Nitrite poisoning....is called Brown blood disease ...it becomes Black Discus disease when the Fish becomes stressed out and ultimately dies from it.....


I haven't seen anything empirical done yet on Discus at various pHs and hardness, so I can't say which is more toxic at what pH and hardness( factors that matter immensely)..so... play it safe.... water change!

-al

[sophie68]

Hi guys

I am so sorry to have started this thread!!!!! I have learned a lot by whatever mistake I did but my nitrites are back to 0!!!!! Oh joy!!! I cheated, I did a 50% WC then added the BIo Spira. Did not feed the fish yesterday at all. This AM, I had 0 nitrites. This stuff is pretty incredible, albeit expensive... But I feel relieved. One thing is sure, I am not using Amquel Plus anymore as I think it messed up my water chemistry. I also added something against phosphates that fateful day, out the window it goes....I have put darkening shades behind my shades so the room is really dark now anyway..... Thank you all, especially Connie, for her constant kindness! You're the best!!!!

Sophie

[Graham]

Don ppm and mg/l are the same thing

Sophie don't be sorry about starting the thread, hopefully you and who ever else has been reading it have learned something....Connie and I bantering back and forth doesn't mean anything, we'll still be friends after this, even though she's going to be wearing a PINK bikers skull helmet on her new bike

[Don Trinko]

I learn a lot from threads like this so don't be sorry , be happy. You are helping educate me. Don T. ( I could use some spelling lessons also!)

[poconogal]

Don ppm and mg/l are the same thing

Sophie don't be sorry about starting the thread, hopefully you and who ever else has been reading it have learned something....Connie and I bantering back and forth doesn't mean anything, we'll still be friends after this, even though she's going to be wearing a PINK bikers skull helmet on her new bike

Sophie, absolutely. Graham and I have been friends for what seems like ages now... doesn't it, Graham?

And I'm rather fond of my pink biker's helmet, which I haven't posted on SD yet... Its very girlie, isn't it?

[Graham]

LOL I want pics of the ''bike chic'' in the pink skull cap