Best beginning

[Genirous]

Hi guys, I would like your opinions on this one...

This week I may finally get the 6 wild heckels I ''chase'' from June! According to the seller, they are coming from German importer!
In my 400 litre tank I only have 7 dicrossus filamentosus and 3 cardinals...

My question is about quarantine and possible parasites.
I was said that the main quarantine was done by the German importer and I may only quarantine them for the flight trip from Germany to Greece and also the fact that I don't have any other discus in my tank...make me wonder what to do...

Do you think I should quarantine them and also use medications for parasites and if yes, what medicines are the best to use...?

Thank you in advance,
Giorgos!

[Apistomaster]

Hi Giorgos,
It would be a good idea to delay placing your new Heckels into their final display tank so you can treat them. I'm sure that your source has begun some of the usual treatments but it is best to perform them yourself so you know for sure what has been done.

I usually use a higher temperature in quarantine of wild Discus than what I use for maintenance. I would begin at almost 32C for the first week then lower the temperature to 28.5C or 30C. Try to match the pH and hardness. Hopefully They are already being kept in soft acid water. I would add a black water extract and provide low light levels. This will help them to feel more secure and less stressed.

I use flubendazole, praziquantal(Droncit in Europe), and metroniadazole. I use these per manufacturer's recommended dose except the Flubenol 15 which I use at half strength. keep them in quarantine at least two weeks. The correct time is going to depend a lot on what condition they arrive and how well they are eating.
Later on and once the Discus will eat a Discus granule type prepared food I soak some in Prazi and Flubenol and feed them medicated food once a day for one month in addition to what ever frozen or live foods you are using. The initial medicated baths will do much but it is difficult to achieve therapeutic drug levels inside the fish unless the receive a course of medicated food otherwise they may continue to retain many parasites in the gut.

You could carry out most of these treatments in your large tank but it is always best to avoid it. Medications work best when there are no dissolved organics in the water, the dirt that has accumulated in the substrate and any wood used for decoration.
Less medication will be used in a smaller bare quarantine tank and no other fish and plants will be subjected to any unnecessary chemicals.
I hope your new Discus come in superb condition.

[Genirous]

Hi Larry,
thank you very much for sharing and your time! I would like to ask you a few more questions...

I have a 120 litre tank, which runs for about 1,5 year. It is now a bare glass tank hosting a couple of festivum (they will be removed of course). I have only pistia stratiotes on the surface, which I intent to leave, so that light becomes less...is it a good idea?
Also, will the filter-bacteria be destroyed by the medications or should I take the filter out and use pump-filter?

Metroniadazole can be found from pharmacy as flagyl in capsules! Inside the capsules, it is in powder form...but the dosage prescribed is for humans! Will I use the same dosage for water and food treatment...?

Praziquantal can be found as Droncit as you accurately said from pet-shop, as medicine for dogs. Will the dosage be the same with fish as for dogs...? Or else how much will I use for water and how much for food treatment...?

Flubendazole I cannot found at all...Is it Panacur (Fenbendazole) the same?

And some general questions...
Temperature is enough at 32, or higher better?
Will I put all medicines together or one at a time?
What water changes should I perform during treatments?
What specific parasites do every medicine kills?

I hope not to ask too many tiring questions...
Thank you again very much for your time and interest Larry,
Giorgos.

[samir]

Is it Panacur (Fenbendazole) the same?

you can use it for deworming, but always in feed, never in water.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Generious,
I just now saw your post. The dog pharmaceuticals would be hard for me to determine the correct doses for aquarium use. These drugs already are available in the USA in preparations intended for aquarium use and they are the only forms I've used.. I would think the European aquarists have already determined what works and someone can help out. Metroniadazole can be dosed at 50 to 100 mg/US gal. I haven't run the conversions to metric.
There are wide dosage ranges used so apparently approximations are good enough. When the vermifuge drugs are used in food one never really knows what amount the fish are actually absorbing but again something is usually much better than nothing. The best guide is the responses from the fish. Good appetites and growth are my indicators of successful treatment.
I would keep them at 32C for 7 to 10 days. I use Hikari PraziPro in the water and the food but I have used 5% flubendazole powder at 1/2 tsp/10 gals in my water with discus without any problems.
The vermifuge drugs cover a wide spectrum of worms; flatworms, round worms and just about any kind of other worm. Their broad spectrum of effectiveness and low toxicity is what makes them such a useful class of meds.
I still do large water changes as usual but I do replace the medications I have removed.

[Genirous]

Thanks samir!

Hi Larry,
thank you again for your reply, I'm obliged!

First thing is about flubendazole!
I've managed to find a medicine here called ''Flutelmium KH paste'', from JANSSEN, which is for dogs and cats containing flubendazole! It's a dewormer that is taken from mouth or in food and I have a photo attached!
It says that the liquid is total of 7,5ml and in every ml contains 44mg flubendazole.
What do you think, can I use it for my discus or not...? For safer use, what is a safe dose..?
I have done my homework and read that in water you propose 5% and in food there is no specific dosage...
BTW, what is the excact amount for litre to your gallons proposed...?

PS: Second thing...
I have finally 6 hecks in my 120 litre aquarium, they are in perfect condition and eating (not much though), but they are still frightened and without full colours. Two of them are dark, but they behave like the others and eating like the others! I'm very enthousiast!

[kaceyo]

Hi Genirous,
I have a couple of dosage recommendations if you still need them.
The pure panacure can be added to food at 1 gram per pound of food.
If it's Panacure Puppy Granules, add 1 gram per 4oz of food. Feed twice a day for about 4 days and repeat in a couple of weeks.
For Prazi, add 100mg per 10 gals.
Metro add 400 t0 500mg per 10 gals up to twice a day for up to 7 days, and at least 3 days, with temp at 32C.
You'll have to figure out the gallons to litre conversion as I can't remember it off hand.
HTH

Kacey

[Apistomaster]

Although not an exact conversion use 4 liters as equal to 1 US gallon. As you may have gathered the dosage rates of all these meds is anything but standardized. The exact conversion of one US gallon is 3.7854118 liters. Good enough for our purposes. Just in case you need to know how here is the calculation for determining the volume in gallons of the aquarium:
Multiply L X W X H in inches of the ACTUAL water, then divide the result by 231 and this will be the actual gallons of water being treated.

If you have access to any live foods, adult brine shrimp or worms, now is the time to be using them. It is very important that these new Heckels eat as well as possible while undergoing treatments and acclimation at the elevated temperatures. Their metabolism is working at above normal levels but at the same time elevated temperatures seem to help induce an appetite and mobilize the immune system. The latter is speculation on my part and I cannot document it with any proof. The higher temperatures also raise the metabolism of the parasites which hopefully aids in increasing the parasites' uptake of the meds. Nearly all disease and parasitic organisms are at their most susceptable to meds when undergoing reproduction.

[Genirous]

Thank you Kacey,
good information are always needed and welcomed!

Hi Larry,
you make me wonder now what is the conversion for 1 inch, because we use metres...
Experience is irreplaceable and if you say so it is much appreciated! Thanks again!

I wonder if I could cultivate live artemia and live daphnia with ease...Are these quality foods for wild heckels or they won't appreciate them...?Are there any articles with advices on how to manage raising such live foods?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Giorgos,
You can find alot of info on raising BRine shrimp at

Brineshrimpdirect.com

My heckels love frzn brine shrimp and frzn blood worms.
An easy food to culture if you can get them where you are is red wigglers...compost worms known as..Eisenia foetida or Lumbricus rubellus

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/caer/...e/compost2.htm

Metroniadazole can be found from pharmacy as flagyl in capsules! Inside the capsules, it is in powder form...but the dosage prescribed is for humans! Will I use the same dosage for water and food treatment...?

Praziquantal can be found as Droncit as you accurately said from pet-shop, as medicine for dogs. Will the dosage be the same with fish as for dogs...? Or else how much will I use for water and how much for food treatment...?

Flubendazole I cannot found at all...Is it Panacur (Fenbendazole) the same?

metro is metro,, you need to know the concentration...example... 250 or 500 mg per pill.

Flubendazole is not the same as fenbendazole... You can add flubendazole to the water... never add fenbendazole to the water... both can be added to the food.




hTH,
AL

PS...

you make me wonder now what is the conversion for 1 inch, because we use metres...

1 INCH =2.54 cm

[Genirous]

Hi AL,
thanks for the shrimp, worm and inch info!
Flagyl contains 500mg metro in every capsule! Do you know something about the flutelmium I mentioned above...? Is it ok for flubendazole cure?

Hope I'm not too much of a problem, I would like to ask if medicines raise the conductivity of the water!
Also, I have red that 1ppm (TDS)=1.56 mS, is there any conversion with mV too...? And also, is there any connection between conductivity and gH...?