Uber filter? Jaubert/plenum Cell-Pore

[Seecher]

Thank you Hans for this information you're veritable Gold Mine of ideas!

Please note one of the major advantages of this filtration system is "• Up to 75% less water changes", this is definitely the direction we want to go.

<< snip>>
And search for Jaubert/plenum method of filtration for nitrates reduction,
it works quite fine in freshwater tanks too.
It seem to be a good site for the beginning:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...n/plenum.shtml
Hans

http://www.reefresh2o.com/biofiltration.htm

Jaubert/plenum Cell-Pore

ReefresH2O is ideal for freshwater and marine aquariums and ponds.

Its non-clogging, interconnected pore structure is an efficient home for
biofilms of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to grow. Water is able to
pass through quickly and easily, providing contact with both types of
bacteria.

All of this adds up to healthier fish and less work for you!

Cell-Pore Technology -

Cell-Pore technology is based upon a unique manufacturing process which results in a porous ceramic material unlike any other.

To begin with, all of the raw materials used are selected based upon purity and consistency. Gases are created during a foaming process of a prepared mix which in turn develops a desired porosity. These gasses are controlled to create interconnected pores of varying sizes - from sub-micron to 500 micron or larger.

The cast shape is then fired at a high temperature to ensure the resulting structure is sterile and free of soluble phosphates, silicates and organic material.

ReefresH2O with Cell-Pore™ Technology Advantages

• 10-100x more surface area per cubic inch than any other biomedia

• Works in freshwater & marine aquariums & ponds

• Smaller material & equipment footprint

• Works with existing filtration systems

• Less time spent cleaning your aquatic environment

• Up to 75% less water changes

• Mimics biological filtration found in nature without harvesting live rock

[Hans Kloss]

Thank you Hans for this information you're veritable Gold Mine of ideas!
Please note one of the major advantages of this filtration system is "• Up to 75% less water changes", this is definitely the direction we want to go.

I'm working on it from 5 years. An idea of self-purification in freshwater aquarium was taken from the "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad, the best book about fish keeping I've ever read.
Hans

[OriTeper]

I'm working on it from 5 years. An idea of self-purification in freshwater aquarium was taken from the "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad, the best book about fish keeping I've ever read.
Hans

hi,
have you been using it on discus tanks? where do you use the cell-pro slabs (under substrate, sump)? do you acctually need less water changes?

[Cosmo]

I've used cell pore cubes in my Eheim cannisters for a couple years now. The 9 X 9 blocks are unfortunately too big to fit into any filter or sump I own.

As with any other bio media, there has to be a constant flow of water through it so simply laying under substrate wouldn't be an efficient use unless you were running a UGF to keep a flow going.

Water should be filtered before reaching the media so that floating detritus does not clog the surface and prevent good water flow.

You can buy slabs made to fit most HOB filters @ drsfostersmith.com and possibly other sources but again, you need to have some form of straining material (filter floss etc) between the source of the dirty water and the cell pore media. I used a slab in an Emperor HOB once in the second slot - using a standard insert (with the carbon removed) in the first slot and that worked quite well.

Strange thing is I haven't seen the Rocker wet/dry advertised for some time now

[Graham]

There are all kinds of pourous ceramic media out there and as Jim alluded to they need water pouring through them or they clog. The smaller the media and pore size the quicker they'll clog.

Once the pores are clogged either with mulm or sloughed off dead bacteria the available surface area for bacteria, either aerobic or anaerobic is drastically reduced. Needless to say this would start with the inner pores.

Another potential problem is having anaerobic activity with in the system..........a lot of pathogenic bacteria are anaerobic, along with possible H2S production.

Most products are not exactly what thier manufacturers would like everyone to believe. There are no magical bullets out there that remove the need for fresh water

This one is Bakki House...it supposely produces far infared radition to zap organics...great TT media though and when set up right it will gas off NO3

[Hans Kloss]

hi,
have you been using it on discus tanks?

Yes, it is my 2nd attempt to "no WC discus tank". My previous project based on deep sand bed (DSB) and undergravel filtration worked for 3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC).

where do you use the cell-pro slabs (under substrate, sump)?

Cell pore slabs are not necessary for building aerobic/anaerobic bottom filtration. I use water resistant microporous cloth instead, placed under bottom substrate (tiny basalt gravel for aerobic and quartz sand for anaerobic filtration).

do you actually need less water changes?

I DON'T need water changes at all . My fish don't need it too, of course during reasonable period of time, IMHO at least 2 months.
But my water plants are stopping to grow after 1 month with no WC and I still cannot resolve this problem.
Hans

[Graham]

I DON'T need water changes at all . My fish don't need it too, of course during reasonable period of time, IMHO at least 2 months.
But my water plants are stopping to grow after 1 month with no WC and I still cannot resolve this problem.

Hans how can you state you don't need water changes and then turn around and state ''....3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC)....'' and then say that you're going 2 months with out changes.........sorry sir you are doing water changes, maybe not as many and as often as some but you still are doing them.

At about the one month period your water is missing some as your plants are not growing....that's when the water change should be done.

Fish, including discus are very adaptable animals and as long as changes to water quality are done gradually, they accept it....even where water is deteriorating


This reminds me of the Aquascapes Pond systems and their marketing BS...simply add water, their bacteria powders and top off as needed...it's an Eco-System...no maintenance, no work......then about 4 pages over they tell you that the pond needs to be drained power washed and vacuumed out each spring.....why because the water has gone to crap............

[Hans Kloss]

Hans how can you state you don't need water changes and then turn around and state ''....3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC)....''

It was QUITE ANOTHER TANK, with different filtration system, twice as small as my present 220 gallons. Playing with it I've been forced to WC due to nitrates level after 3-4 weeks .

and then say that you're going 2 months with out changes.........sorry sir you are doing water changes, maybe not as many and as often as some but you still are doing them.

Of course I do. But now I'm doing WC's for quite another reason.
Undregravel filtration kills my phosphates and it is normal, I must dose it every week. Plenum kills my microelements and I'm dosing it every 3 days to keep my plants growing. But after one month (sometimes more) my plants stop to grow for unknown reason- I suspect Ca/Mg ratio is disturbed but I'm still not sure of it.
After one month my water is still suitable for fish. Discus are eating, spawning etcetc. Additionally my quality controller (Gymnarchus niloticus) behaves normally. This fish is much more sensitive for water quality than discus or even otos, every water deteriorations tend him to swim in panic or eventually to die before discus show to be unhappy.
Hans

[Seecher]

I DON'T need water changes at all . My fish don't need it too, of course during reasonable period of time, IMHO at least 2 months.
But my water plants are stopping to grow after 1 month with no WC and I still cannot resolve this problem.
Hans

Greetings Hans,

See if this resonates with you. I don't think water changes will
help your problem with your plants. I think it's the fact that you
are controlling your nitrates therefore starving the plants. This
may be a necessary to get on a properly balanced aquarium,
that is slow plant growth.

I grew miniature roses commercially for over 25 years using
hydroponic methods. I had a constant feed of nitrogen at 200
parts per million if I would let that fall below 150 the plants would
virtually stop growing or grow very, very slowly. They still look
healthy and all but I didn't have the rapid growth and I needed
to produce new breaks and blooms. Could this be the same
thing happening with your plants?

[Graham]

I'm not sure why a UG would have any affect on phosphates......... plants on the other hand want phosphates and a nitrogen source....they use ammonia long before they'll use nitrate as that nitrogen source....

The GH of the water shouldn't have a lot of affects on them either, unless you get into buffering chemistry and start looking at the CO2 and Ca relationship, with the CO2 being converted into CaCO3...head spins....

[Seecher]

Hans how can you state you don't need water changes and then turn around and state ''....3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC)....'' and then say that you're going 2 months with out changes.........sorry sir you are doing water changes, maybe not as many and as often as some but you still are doing them.

At about the one month period your water is missing some as your plants are not growing....that's when the water change should be done.

Fish, including discus are very adaptable animals and as long as changes to water quality are done gradually, they accept it....even where water is deteriorating


This reminds me of the Aquascapes Pond systems and their marketing BS...simply add water, their bacteria powders and top off as needed...it's an Eco-System...no maintenance, no work......then about 4 pages over they tell you that the pond needs to be drained power washed and vacuumed out each spring.....why because the water has gone to crap............

Greetings Graham,

I think this is really a stretch and you are grabbing at straws to
try and make your point. A yearly cleaning of an aquarium or
pond is not unreasonable and a far cry from 50% water change
three times a week ( for no apparent reason). To say that
replacing evaporating aquarium water is a water change, or
replacing water that has been removed do to occasional
cleaning constitutes a water change is reaching to make your
point. It's water replacement.

If water is dangerously deteriorating its needs to be replaced.
Deteriorating water can be measured. If an aquarium is
balanced water maybe deteriorating but at any various slow
rate. Perhaps that the best we can ask for in such a confined
area.

Tell me Graham, what would you do to make a balanced discus
tank, that is, that would last a year without major maintenance.
I would be interested in your comments.

[OriTeper]

Hans any way you could give us a full description of your system? and pics would be awsome too.

im trying to decide what kind of system i should go with on the 250gal im planning on building, its all so confusing with all the different filtering methods: canisters, wet sumps, wet/dry sumps, ugf, DSB, planums, plant filters, high-tech, low tech...

ahhhh! my head hurts lol

[Graham]

[QUOTE=Seecher;418634]Greetings Graham,

I think this is really a stretch and you are grabbing at straws to
try and make your point. A yearly cleaning of an aquarium or
pond is not unreasonable and a far cry from 50% water change
three times a week ( for no apparent reason).

You've kind of lost me here....with proper husbandry and regular water changes an aquarium should never need an annual cleaning. I've never stated that 50% 3 times a week was needed, in fact I don't do it, I don't think that it's needed..............50% once a week yup!

To say that
replacing evaporating aquarium water is a water change, or
replacing water that has been removed do to occasional
cleaning constitutes a water change is reaching to make your
point. It's water replacement.

I guess that you didn't get what I was trying to say about an AS system....just replacing evaporated water/topping off, is a lousy practice. It just concentrates whatever is in the water. Doing a decent cleaning and removing 10%+ of the systems water is a water change...a small one mind you but still one



If water is dangerously deteriorating its needs to be replaced.
Deteriorating water can be measured. If an aquarium is
balanced water maybe deteriorating but at any various slow
rate. Perhaps that the best we can ask for in such a confined
area.

The balance of a system changes daily to the bad side...it's always going down hill...the bio-load will dictate how fast that happens but it starts the second that we add living critters into that water

Tell me Graham, what would you do to make a balanced discus
tank, that is, that would last a year without major maintenance.
I would be interested in your comments.

For a year........ It doesn't exist or if it does then it would be my 2500 gallon koi holding tank with a ton of plants, Hyacinth and lettuce, a 4000gph Bakki House system and 2 fish with very regulated amounts of food........

Now to reality....1 fish per 10 gallons, weekly vacuming, settling chamber for heaving crud and weekly 50% water changes....the nature of the hobby.

Like I told one of the newer koi hobbyist who didn't like cleaning filters...If you don't want the chores that go with fish then take up stamp collecting.....

[Seecher]

[QUOTE=Graham;418639]

Tell me Graham, what would you do to make a balanced discus
tank, that is, that would last a year without major maintenance.
I would be interested in your comments.

For a year........ It doesn't exist or if it does then it would be my 2500 gallon koi holding tank with a ton of plants, Hyacinth and

Hold on just a minute, you said that Aquascapes Pond systems
was viable for a year. You have pointed out one example and
yet now you disclaiming that example. So what you're saying is
it possible for aquascapes but it's not for you. Interesting, perhaps
you should look into Aquascapes systems a bit closer.

It's obvious that this is another situation there we're going to have
to agree to disagree. I would just as soon chat with folks that
are really trying to give this an honest effort then naysayers who
only want to shoot project down. That being said I welcome
"constructive criticism" is the best way to learn.

Incidentally I resent your implication that someone searching and
asking questions about achieving a balance discus tank is lazy
and not willing to do the work necessary to raise healthy discus
Quite the contrary is true.

To Al and Hans:
By the way I had an opportunity to pick up a handful of water
sprite and a dozen Malaysian trumpet snails. A small step to
the beginning of this project.

[Hans Kloss]

I don't think water changes will
help your problem with your plants.

I have NO PROBLEMS with my plants until one month after last WC. They are growing fast enough to restrict algae growth. But there is a moment when they almost stop to grow and ugly, green hairy algae start to grow faster than my shrimps can eat them.
It is not a problem of low nitrates ( I can keep it at almost any level, controlling water flow through plenum) or known microelements deficiency. It is not a problem of low GH (it's always below 1) or low pH (always near 5.5). My plants are extremely easy and fast growing- limnofila aquatica, cabomba caroliniana and ceratopteris thalictroides.
Hans