Uber filter? Jaubert/plenum Cell-Pore

[Hans Kloss]

I'm not sure why a UG would have any affect on phosphates

My gravel is basalt. It is reach of microelements and iron oxide. Unfortunately iron oxide can react in acidic conditions with phosphate ions giving completely insoluble iron(III)phosphate. I noticed this effect in my previous tank. Nothing to worry about, it should stop sucking phosphates after 1 or 2 years. But my tank is still not aged enough ;( .....
Hans

[Hans Kloss]

im trying to decide what kind of system i should go with on the 250gal im planning on building, its all so confusing
ahhhh! my head hurts lol

It is simple- do 125 gal water change every other day and filtration system should be not important- even NO FILTRATION will be good enough. But remember- water for WC must be aged .
Hans
PS. I'm working on it. But must find one year old pictures and carefully consider all DISADVANTAGES of undergravel/jaubert filtration system. The major one is probably necessity of soft and acidic water. In tap water bacteria and fungi will eat your fish almost for sure.

[Seecher]

Ah... Multiple problems... let us know how you resolve them.

Thank you for listing of plants I'll make note of those for future reference.

[OriTeper]

It is simple- do 125 gal water change every other day and filtration system should be not important- even NO FILTRATION will be good enough. But remember- water for WC must be aged .
.

thanks i needed that! (lol i allready have a list of so many filters...) ill plan it like you say, 125gal every other day, and maybe a bag of bio media in there for my peace of mind.

time to start ordering equipment!!

[Hans Kloss]

125gal

But....how can you get 375 gal of AGED water weekly?
Hans

[OriTeper]

But....how can you get 375 gal of AGED water weekly?
Hans

If 1 day is enough to age water (is it?) then ill just build a big holding tank from acrylic and hide it behind my tank.
i am planning on using tap water with no R/O so i could fill this tank quickly after a wc.
which reminds me, i need to go buy some test kits to see if my tap water is ok. im thinking more of keeping the water parameters stable rather then perfect (i.e soft and acidic).

[OriTeper]

btw, will i get the same effectiveness if i changed 25% every day (as apposed to 50% every other day). would be a lot easier for me since i could use a smaller holding tank (wc will be automated anyway)

[Seecher]

which reminds me, i need to go buy some test kits to see if my
tap water is ok. im thinking more of keeping the water parameters stable rather then perfect (i.e soft and acidic).

Greetings OriTeper,

The test kit is a great idea, every fish keeper should have one.
Why don't you base your water changes on the condition of the
water prior to the change? You might be surprised that you don't
have to change the water as frequently as you thought. Discus
can be comfortable with nitrate levels in the 20 or 30 parts per
million range, if your tank water is below those numbers then,
chances are, you don't need to do a water change. Eventually
experience will be your best guide, but I think that experience
should be based on scientific knowledge of the quality of water
your discus like to live in.

(We are living in an age in which aquifers are being depleted and
water shortages are existing in many parts of the world, perhaps,
we should be a bit more judicious over the water that we use for
a hobby.)

[Graham]

This reminds me of the Aquascapes Pond systems and their marketing BS...simply add water, their bacteria powders and top off as needed...it's an Eco-System...no maintenance, no work......then about 4 pages over they tell you that the pond needs to be drained power washed and vacuumed out each spring.....why because the water has gone to crap............

Hold on just a minute, you said that Aquascapes Pond systems
was viable for a year. You have pointed out one example and
yet now you disclaiming that example. So what you're saying is
it possible for aquascapes but it's not for you. Interesting, perhaps
you should look into Aquascapes systems a bit closer.

OK back from fighting with hurricanes…………you need to read closer, I said no such thing; I stated that Aquascapes marketing BS states it; they tell you that the pond needs nothing, including water changes etc. It’s supposedly a balanced eco system. Go watch one of these ponds being cleaned after a year! Balanced septic tank

It's obvious that this is another situation there we're going to have
to agree to disagree. I would just as soon chat with folks that
are really trying to give this an honest effort then naysayers who
only want to shoot project down.

Over the last 47 years of keeping fish (fresh, marine, Reef, and show koi) both as a hobbyist and for a while commercially, I’m not being a naysayer to anything, but speaking from experience. If you can come up with a way to have a maintenance free eco-system in a glass box I’m listening.

There no question that water quality can be measured…but our little junky test kits are only the tip of the iceberg…nitrate is only one very small aspect to water quality….try getting an ORP, TDS, Salinity, DO and a few other electronic meters then you’ll really understand what’s happening with your water

[Seecher]

Over the last 47 years of keeping fish (fresh, marine, Reef, and show koi) both as a hobbyist and for a while commercially, I’m not being a naysayer to anything, but speaking from experience. If you can come up with a way to have a maintenance free eco-system in a glass box I’m listening.

There no question that water quality can be measured…but our little junky test kits are only the tip of the iceberg…nitrate is only one very small aspect to water quality….try getting an ORP, TDS, Salinity, DO and a few other electronic meters then you’ll really understand what’s happening with your water

I don't have 47 years experience in keeping fish. Only 10 off and
on. But sometimes that's a good thing. Someone who is not
entrenched with the hobbies presuppositions, traditions and
superstitions can sometimes give a different point of view .
I respect age and experience but as a person of the
sixties I continue to "question authority", if it doesn't make sense
there must be another answer that does.

I don't know that I can come up with a maintenance-free eco
system for fish in a glass box but perhaps a group of us could
over a period of time. With a wealth of knowledge that you have
perhaps you can channel that into making his project really viable.
You have seen many changes over the years which makes fish
keeping easier and more maintenance-free. Even though the
basic water parameters are the same.

I do agree that this simple water test kits that are available
including test strips are inadequate for precise water readings,
but for the most part, they keep us in the ballpark. Personally I
do have a pH meter and a TDS meter. And I'm seriously
considering buying a nitrate meter.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...1&N=2004&Nty=1

Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor

The Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor is an accurate, affordable digital measurment instrument for both saltwater and freshwater. It has been designed for precision spot testing only. Continuous nitrate monitoring may not be possible in most situations and may require frequent recalibration and probe replacement. Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor is not waterproof and must be operated on a dry surface. Liquid contact with the printed circuit board may cause corrosion and void warranty.

[Graham]

Over the years there have been better filters built, air pumps that don't sound like buzz saws in you bedroom, water pumps etc but the basic principles of keeping fish have never changed...the old Dutch guy, Dirk that taught me the basics, kept guppies in tin 2 gallon cans during WW2....he had little air driven filters...we still have air driven filters...60+years later...get what I'm saying here.

Unless you really want to get into chemically modifying your water there is really nothing super duper new, tech wise. The reefers have come the closest and they had to tear up a section of the reef to get live rock, to help with the eco-system. Even then they still do water changes.

Try and think of it this way..The average fish in the wild has 50,000 to 100,000 gallons of water to itself...it has a full biological eco-system maintaining that water quality and then it has Mother Nature to roll in and flush the toilet on a regular basis....massive influxes of fresh water.

We give a fish maybe 10 gallons to itself and then put too much organic into the water and we might flush that toilet weekly, bi-weekly, monthly what.... 10% > 30 % > 50% still a long shot from what MN does.....to try and think that we can create a eco-system...something balanced in a glass puddle is ridiculous

Change the water

[White Worm]

Someone who is not
entrenched with the hobbies presuppositions, traditions and
superstitions can sometimes give a different point of view .

Here is the reason you lose your credibility here on this site. If it doesnt make sense to you, you dismiss it as a fairy tale. You have done this more than a few times which tends to make many think you are just rambling to be heard. You should use your own advice and open your mind to the possibility that what you are saying is not going to work for the current day hobbyist.
These practices you dismiss are tried and true by many who have been doing this for a very long time. If and when there becomes a time when we can create a maintenance-free environment, it will be discovered and tested by these same people who have been around the block with many different methods. Until someone can show solid proof that we dont have to do w/c's, its all just wishful thinking. It sounds like Hans is on the track to coming up with a solution but it still has a few bugs to be worked out.

[OriTeper]

I thought one of the main points of being on a forum like this (or any forum for that matter) would be to share ideas and perhaps together come up with solutions.
Its true that up till now no one has come up with a perfect closed eco-system in a box that you could leave for 100 years come back open the lid and find a thriving fish and plant community, or we would all be using it. BUT we have nothing to loose and everything to gain from trying to get there.
If more people try to take this path then more information would be made available to everyone and thus better systems can emerge from shared experiences.
In my opinion we need to encourage this kind of experimentation and not dismiss it, especially when people take their own time and fundings to try new things.
Aviation for example, was discovered by two brothers (who didn't have the benefit of an international and active information source at their fingertips) over 100 years ago when most people thought people flying was a ridicules notion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXxkWXncuo

just my two cents

[White Worm]

Nobody is dismissing the possibilities of finding a better way and sharing ideas. However, someone is dismissing the ways we currently do it and why we do it. Like I already said, if there was factual evidence to support such a process (not changing water) and still keeping healthy discus, it would be highly accepted. Ideas are hard to consider when paired with insult and then backed by little experimentation or experience.
I'm still waiting for pictures of the discus and the tank that doesnt get regular water changes.

[kaceyo]

I think Hans is doing a great job of explaining his ideas and the work he's put into reaching his goal of doing minimul wc's on an aquarium. He show's he has an understanding of the principles involved. Seacher, you show only contempt for anything outside your focus and you've not once tried to discuss the practicle side of getting to your "goal". The only info you've offered are copies of the text in advertisments for filters and products you associates with lowering nitrates. I, and many others, have asked you about your tanks parameters and how you intend to achieve your goal. Not a word on this have you offered. I now think it's because you wouldn't know what to say.

Kacey