Uber filter? Jaubert/plenum Cell-Pore

[Seecher]

Mikscus wrote:
> > Here is the reason you lose your credibility here on this site. If it doesnt make sense to you, you dismiss it as a fairy tale. You have done this more than a few times which tends to make many think you are just rambling to be heard.

Secher responds:
... I'm lost credibility on the forum? Apparently only with you. But
that's OK, we can go from there. If something doesn't make sense
to me I look for answers that does make sense. I don't dismiss it,
necessarily as a fairy tale. Only perhaps as urban legend,
tradition or the way things have always been done (without
further scientific consideration). Water parameters have a
measurable quality. If the quality of this is water is deteriorating
beyond the health parameters of the discus it needs to be
changed, pure and simple... no argument here. What is TOTALLY
nonsense is to say the water should be changed so many times a
week at so much percent. Who came up with that? What proof
do you have it that is correct. 50 % water change every day of
the properly balanced water you don't need aeration or filters but
is that what the hobbyist coming down to?

Mikscus wrote:
> > You should use your own advice and open your mind to the possibility that what you are saying is not going to work for the current day hobbyist.

Secher responds:
... Why do you say that. Is the current day hobbyist totally
ignorant and stupid and not able to make proper water
measurements? I think that's rather condescending. I think we
should presume that the current day hobbyist is an experienced
fish keeper and ready to deal with the challenges of discus
keeping without dumbing down the whole process to 50% water
changes the week or some other nonsense formula.

Mikscus wrote:
> > These practices you dismiss are tried and true by many who have been doing this for a very long time.

Secher responds:
... OK maybe that needs to be adjusted. Maybe we should credit
new discus hobbyists with the basic intelligence to figure out that
the water parameters need to be measured. Or find out if there
willing to do that. If they're not willing to do that then give them
some time of non-sense formula that will keep their discus alive.
Let's just not presume that they're not willing to assume the
challenges of the discus keeper or advanced cyclide keeper for
that matter. If we don't tell them water measurements are
necessary prior to water changes how will they ever know?

Mikscus wrote:
> > If and when there becomes a time when we can create a maintenance-free environment, it will be discovered and tested by these same people who have been around the block with many different methods.

Secher responds:
... Not if these are the same people who do water changes based
on day of the week. They will continued perpetuating the same
old legends and traditions without any attempt to figure out how
to do a better. Just my opinion.

Mikscus wrote:
> >Until someone can show solid proof that we dont have to do w/c's, its all just wishful thinking.

Secher wrote:
... And maybe that's why you are put off with me because I turn
that around. I'd ask that folks give me proof why you do water
changes without checking water parameters. You notice no
one has offered any scientific proof of why water measurements
especially for nitrate are a bogus way check water parameters to
see if 'regular' water changes need to happen. Interesting isn't it.

Mikscus wrote:
> > It sounds like Hans is on the track to coming up with a solution but it still has a few bugs to be worked out.

Secher wrote:
...Several people have commented that they don't do regular
water changes. I going two weeks now without a regular water
change and my nitrate levels are below 10 parts per million.
Mikscus, there probably a lot of people on this forum that don't
do regular water changes but only clean their tanks and replace
water weekly or monthly, but are just not willing to post because
they know they're going to get beaten up by the advocates of
regular water changes. It's really tough on people who advocate
change.

...Like you I have a lot of respect for Hans, I wish him the best of
luck in his project and look forward to him sharing his outcomes.
Would you like to join us? The more the merrier. You have
several tanks perhaps you can dedicate one of those tanks to
the no water change project and share with the rest of us what
you've done to get it that way. That can be a lot of fun... what
do you think Sarg?
===========================================
The question for anybody here...

What is the maximum nitrate tolerance for discus? (Damn, I wish
I hadn't given away all my Discus Briefs) Please provide the URL
or other reference for review. Thank you.
============================================

Talk to you later.

[Seecher]

I think Hans is doing a great job of explaining his ideas and the work he's put into reaching his goal of doing minimul wc's on an aquarium. He show's he has an understanding of the principles involved. Seacher, you show only contempt for anything outside your focus and you've not once tried to discuss the practicle side of getting to your "goal". The only info you've offered are copies of the text in advertisments for filters and products you associates with lowering nitrates. I, and many others, have asked you about your tanks parameters and how you intend to achieve your goal. Not a word on this have you offered. I now think it's because you wouldn't know what to say.

Kacey

What a a massive overreaction.

My initial comment was that "regular" water changes should be
based on measured parameters of your water prior to changing.
If your nitrate levels are low the water need not be change,
unless there is another reason to do so.

I have asked what other reasons there are. And people have
said that there are hormones released by the fish which inhibits
growth. This is blatantly false. Others have commented that
water changes are necessary when medication is used, That is
outside of the general question about "regular" water changes.

I have said it is non-sense to base water changes on the day of
the week at a certain percent without any further consideration
for water quality. I stand by that.

Rather than make personal attacks on the
messenger why not just give the proof that regular water
changes are necessary or discus will die a miserable death.

Thank you, I look forward to your response

[White Worm]

I have said it is non-sense to base water changes on the day of
the week at a certain percent without any further consideration
for water quality. I stand by that.

I can see that you are bent on not changing your water because you feel all is well. Yes, many people do just what you say they do. They dont change water often....until....the next time you hear from them because their fish are sick. All I have to say is I can see the affect of clean water and I can see the affect when they are left without (I was a non-believer of frequent large w/c's in the beginning too). I dont change it because of the day of the week. I change it due to fish load, food fed and size of tank. Lets settle this with some photos. Surely you must know someone with a camera? I'll post mine and you post yours. If I see what I expect, then I win. If you have these big beautiful healthy discus, you win. Fair? If not, I can see that further discussion is a waste of time.

[Seecher]

Mikscus wrote:
> > I can see that you are bent on not changing your water because you feel all is well. Yes, many people do just what you say they do. They dont change water often....until....the next time you hear from them because their fish are sick.

Secher replies:
... Wow! You really don't get it do you! It's not how I FEEL
that's what I'm getting away from, the whole point of my
argument. You change your water in your aquarium because
that's the way you "feel". It's obvious you don't measure the
water quality before you change it.

... What I'm trying to say is changing water is not an emotional
event its one based on water parameters that can be measured.
I can see why you don't understand what I'm saying.

Mikscus wrote:
> > All I have to say is I can see the affect of clean water
and I can see the affect when they are left without (I was
a non-believer of frequent large w/c's in the beginning too).

Secher wrote:
... "In the beginning" when you didn't make water changes did
you base that upon the quality of water, did you actually take
water tests with some type of test kit or equipment that told
you what the nitrate levels of your aquariums are?

Mikscus wrote:
> > I dont change it because of the day of the week. I change it due to fish load, food fed and size of tank.

Secher wrote:
... And what are your water parameters. Fish load means nothing
if he grossly overfeed your fish and there is a lot a waste food in
the aquarium. If you feed your fish live food chances are you'll
have less problem with nitrates. But the only way to determine
that is actually measure the water. I guess you don't do that.

Mikscus wrote:
Lets settle this with some photos. Surely you must know someone with a camera? I'll post mine and you post yours. If I see what I expect, then I win. If you have these big beautiful healthy discus, you win. Fair? If not, I can see that further discussion is a waste of time.

Secher wrote:
... Suppose I could get the pictures of my fish, they are perfectly
healthy, fat and happy... is that going to change your mind? I
would guess not you would make up some excuse and say that
"they look good now wait until later when they get in trouble" ...
now, that trouble may come next week next year or 2/3 years
down the road when that happens your response is going to be "I
told you so" there is no way I can come out of this.

... This isn't about my fish or your fish, it's about measuring
water quality in aquariums before regular water changes take
place. You have yet to address that subject. You're right there
is really no sense going on with this conversation we have lost its
theoretical content and the whole point has now turned into a
person vendetta.

... Good luck with your fish. You might want to buy a water
test kit and get actually take a look at your water conditions
before you change your water next time it might be enlightening
information for you.

[White Worm]

Please....I know exactly what I am dealing with. I tested my parameters plenty in the beginning. If you must know...My pH is around 7.8-8.0 and doesnt fluctuate much from tap to tank. gH is 9-11 and kH is 9-11. I always have 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrites and 5-10 nitrates because I have worked out the process to keep it that way. For breeding I use 2/3 RO to 1/3 RO to bring my gH to 3-6 and kH around 3. If you stick with the same routine, there is no reason to continually check. I will check periodically if I notice a different behavior with the discus. Once in a while, the water company may throw in something. Never can be too safe. I use prime water conditioner every time I change the water and I over-filter and over aerate. I have adjusted my process many times until I found what works for me. I used the advice here and made it work for my parameters and test results. You cannot live by test results alone. Some people have perfect parameters but still can have a problem that isnt measured in Ammonia, Nitrate or Nitrite. In this hobby, yes, there is a time when you get a feel for it and just can tell when something is not on the up and up. I dont need a test kit for that. I go by the rule of thumb (1 per 10g) but I will push it little with 2-3 extra depending on size. I feed 2x a day with FBW, pellets and live white worms. Trust me, I know my tanks.
Water quality is about keeping it clean and to do that, you have to change it because you have living creatures inside continually making it dirty. Thats the bottom line. Good luck and I'm waiting for the pics....that.. should be pretty enlightening.
I'm done for now because I'm sure Al is about to step in.
I'll await your pics just to prove your theory.

[B-O-F]

I think I might run an experiment filtering the air I breath rather than keep changing it

Seriously you two. You both have systems that you feel work for you. Whats the big deal ?

[Hans Kloss]

===========================================
The question for anybody here...

What is the maximum nitrate tolerance for discus?
============================================

Probably nobody has measured it. But I've seen adults in water over 80 ppm of nitrates, heavy breathing and darkened but still alive and eating.
Discus are not as sensitive for nitrates as people suspect them to be. 30 ppm seem to be fully acceptable for adults, whereas otos have become to die within 1-2 months.
Hans

[OriTeper]

I think I might run an experiment filtering the air I breath rather than keep changing it

what do you think they do on space shuttles and stations in orbit?

BTW, i have thought of the ultimate solution:
Let's all move to the amazon and set up our pumps to circulate fresh amazon river water right into our tanks!

[B-O-F]

what do you think they do on space shuttles and stations in orbit?

Touche


Pumping the Amozon sounds good. Wonder if I could do it with the Thames ? ( Oxford joke )

[Hans Kloss]

I'll await your pics just to prove your theory.

Maybe this one can encourage Seecher:
Pictures of my previous tank shortly before its murdering.
110gal, 6-8 adult discus, undergravel with DSB filtration.
50% water change every 3-4 weeks with final NO3 concentration about 30 ppm. Moderately soft (GH 7-8) and acidic water (pH 5.5).

[RandalB]

Since Al hasn't noticed the degeneration of this thread yet, I'll step in:

Keep it Civil all or this thread is history. You want to discuss, fine. You want to snipe back and forth at each other it's not. Things keep going the way they are and you're done.

The Simplydiscus.com Team

[brewmaster15]

Amen Randal!

Please everyone keep things civil...discuss by all means..but refrain from making it personal..

-al

[Seecher]

Amen Randal!

Please everyone keep things civil...discuss by all means..but refrain from making it personal..

-al

THANK YOU, I can live with that.

Discussion is based on scientific principles of water condition not
personalities. If folks want to make a water change based upon
nitrate levels of 5-10 parts per million, so be it. However, the
discus are not all threatened at that level. Perhaps a balance
tank can be maintained at 10-15 parts per million and nitrate with
cleaning and water replacement. That is what I have found.

Thank you Hans for the pictures. I will try to get pictures of my
tank and fish as soon as possible.

My water sprite is growing rapidly as floaters and sending out new
shoots. The Malaysian trumpet snails are cruising the gravel
substrate, great little critters... Lots of fun.

[OriTeper]

Pumping the Amozon sounds good. Wonder if I could do it with the Thames ? ( Oxford joke )

why not? oh and i call dibs on the first batch of 4 eyed discus fry you get from that tank :P

[kaceyo]

My apologies to Al, Simply Team, members and Seacher. My bad.

Kacey